Waiting for marriage but fapping?

You're assuming a lot there. And still ignoring the verse about lust.

 

Also, being "angry with someone" definitely does not necessitate action. People say "I'm angry with my wife" all the time. Not "I'm angry about my wife."

 

I was not ignoring the verse about lust, I thought another example might make things clearer. But it didn't, lol.

 

So, Jesus comments about adultery make a clear distinction about literal adultery and 'adultery of the heart'. If they were the same thing, he would have used the same phrase. No, he clearly speaks about something very different. Has the church back then or since, ever taken punitive action against anyone for 'adultery of the heart'? No. But actual fornicators are subject to removal from the congregation. There is an example of this with the Corinthians, to which Paul referred.

Shall we leave it there, now we have had an exchange of views on this one?

 

Sure. I didn't mean that they are literally the same thing, but all sin separates you from God in the same manner. So whether someone says "I'm fine with porn, but I draw the line at sex outside of marriage" or "I'm fine with sex outside of marriage, but I draw the line at porn" really doesn't matter. Both are bad. Both are sins. That's what I'm trying to get at here. I don't think either one is worse than the other, in the sense that all sin is wrong and separates you from God equally.

This whole thing really just comes back to the question of whether or not all sin is equal, which I've already talked about in great detail in another thread, so I don't really feel like rehashing that whole thing here.

 

Can you provide a link to that please or a title perhaps so I can search for it?

 

I believe the title of the thread was something like "is all sin equal" or "are all of the 10 commandments equal." It was posted by @Brokenman123 I believe.

 

Thanks, I found it: https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.php?threads/are-the-10-commandments-equal.220802

 

Umm, actually I think it was wethebest who posted that thread.

 

@IGY i am intrigued; you describe Jesus’ higher standards but then pivot to say the “church” didn’t take any action on the intentions of the sinner.

Does this reasoning give evidence that the peeping Tom is not sinning...? As for whether the church takes action— I assume that’s just anecdotal in your case; many churches do take pornography (heart sins) seriously—i have friends in ministry that have lost their positions over that.

On the other hand—-certainly for recovering addicts , that would be great if it were true. We wouldn’t have to worry about lust, instead only worry about adultery and fornication.

But—Can that be right ??

God claims to be qualified to judge the heart; as is revealed in the story of pharaoh and Moses; Belshazzar and Daniel; and what about eliezar (servant of Elisha) who lusted in his heart (for wealth) , and there is evidence to suggest sins confined to the heart are still counted as sin.

Genesis 7:5
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Would you say in this context these thoughts that brought about the flood were not qualified as sinful?

 

@need4realchg, you seem to have inferred that my point is to say that sins of the heart are not, in fact, sins. That is not what I said. What I was saying is that a sin of the heart in contrast to the same sin that is acted out, is not as serious.

Therefore, we do have to worry about lust. But of far more seriousness it would be to act out that lust by fornicating. You say ministers have lost their positions because of lust. But I doubt if any have been excommunicated from the church, as they could be for fornication (I noted the precedent for this in 1 Corinthians). I hope this clarifies my earlier post about this.

 

Ahh-- I see. Thanks for clarifying. I conceed your other point too--well done, good show No, no one that I know of has been excommunicated. for sins of the heart, but tbh, i have not heard of ANYONE being excommunicated in my lifetime(30+ years) ...

@Castielle made my next point already then i believe. ( and yes, I love when she does that

The scale of seriousness for sin that you describe I am unfamiliar with it as Biblical but I do know it is popular... just like the oft-misquoted phrase: "God helps those who help themselves"... not biblical but popular (in american culture).

I have understood the scale of seriousness stems hundreds of years ago--from Dante when he created in his fictionalized work "Inferno." His imaginative flair has been adopted and largely popularized in post-modern ideas concerning sin, God, purgatory, and the levels/degrees of seriousness to it.

I don't want to speak for you-- so where would you say, your understanding/concept of degrees of sin originates?

 

I'm not aware of Dante's novel. My understanding about the degrees of sin originates with the Bible. See these examples:

http://christianworldview.net/2015/07/are-some-sins-worse-than-others-2

 

I get ‘for all have fallen short of the glory of god’, so yeah any sin is damning. But I think it’s okay to use common sense to distinguish sins in to different severities.

Also I think the bible says he who sins sexually sins against themselves. So if I had to choose between porn addiction, not just lusting for it beating my meat to not one but thousands of people, normally in degrading contexts, with no human connection, all the time for years. Or sex with one person before we marry which is a covenant but basically an officiality. I would choose the latter.

 

Whoops, sorry, you're right

 

Yeah, actually come to think of it, that's definitely been true in my experience as well. People absolutely take that seriously. Especially in leadership. When I wanted to join the youth ministry team last year, I told the youth pastor about my porn addiction, and it didn't disqualify me from serving, but it was definitely taken seriously and he made sure that I was taking active steps to overcome it.

Same. I've heard of people losing their positions of leadership, but not kicked out of the church. If everyone was kicked out of the church for being a sinner, then there would be no church.

Lol anytime

Okay, this is pretty much getting into the same conversation we had in that other thread, so I guess I will reiterate what I said there....

"If you have a glass of water and you drop in one drop of food coloring, the water is now tainted. Whether you put 1 drop or 50, the only way to make the water clean again is to pour it out and get a new glass. So regardless of how much you sin, or what sins you have committed, you (meaning all of us) have fallen short of God's standard of perfection, and the only way to fix it is for him to make you a completely new creation. A new glass of water.

That being said, obviously some sins have worse or different consequences and outcomes than others. Murder, for example, obviously will effect you and those around you in a much more negative way than, for example, lying. But they are equal in the sense that either one of those sins would make you a "sinner" and in need of a Savior."

And at the end of the day, that's the main thing that matters. Your status with God is more important than how big your sin is, or what the negative effects of it are. Whether you stole a pack of gum, or robbed a family of everything they own, either way, you are not right with God if you haven't accepted Jesus as your Savior, so you are destined for hell. So why does it matter which sins are "worse" or "better" when they all lead to an eternity without God? That should be the most important thing. You should never justify sin by essentially saying "I know stealing this pack of gum will separate me from God just as much as if I punched someone in the face, but it feels less bad, so I'm gonna do it." That shows that your priority is in not harming others or doing the least amount of damage on earth (which is a good thing to care about, but not the most important thing), rather than being on your status with God and whether or not you are separating yourself from Him.

I just really don't think we are meant to be debating which sins are better or worse than others. It seems frivolous to me. They're all sin, and they all separate us from God, so what does it matter which ones are "better" or "worse"?

If you want more verses to back up what I've been saying, check out this article:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/all_sins_being_equal

 

Appreciate the quote/link. I want to thank you for being honest in your approach too, oftentimes by this part in any religiously-tinged conversation the stones get picked up on both sides; lol. so I thank you and expect this will be my last contribution in this topic...

This phrase “sin unto death”, 7 mortal sins, civil law versus Decalogue does make the reader think there are a degree of sins—-yes; however the bible numerously states the wages of sin is death. “ romans 6:3. There are hundreds of verses to support all, any, large or small sin brings death. I feel a misunderstanding or a misreading of this basic concept can be disastrous.

This can undo the need for Christ to die, and benefit of Christ having actually resurrected from the consequence of sin. If we re-qualify a problem as a sin that cannot cause death, we are undoing Christ’s purported mission in dying for all sins.

Also to clarify:being tempted to eat the forbidden fruit was not sin. Once the heart decided to eat—- THAT is where sin began, Eating was the fulfilling of sin, not sin itself.

That’s where the misconception begins I suspect. You are focused on the action part of sin which is the result of sin, not sin itself. Sin is “a transgression of the law.”

On one side the “all sin equals death” which Paul describes is why Christ died.

The opposite would be to say all sin does not equal death.

I don’t mind reading that guy’s blog but I tbh I feel perpetuating the Dante version of “sin-severity” is the exact opposite of why Christ died.

I don’t want to sound holier than thou here; I (assumably like my peers here) am learning to release my death grip on porn. I humbly submit to you.... our Porn use could be why this particular concept is unclear.

Porn encourages us to compare and categorize and compartmentalize people, behaviors and ultimately sin —- which is exactly what Dante gives us. A way to cordon off the severity of sin.

This OP asked a logical question which I should answer : I got married very young in part to have sex and avoid fornication and pmo. I followed Paul’s suggestion quite literally on “better to marry than burn. “

But The irony for me is I ended up with all three. Married, pmo, and adultery. Choosing pmo over premarital or extramarital sex i believe is a false dichotomy. If a person is single it would be best to abstain from sexual activity completely; (according to the Bible); they are to be married to God which understandably is a hard concept for us to imagine in our comfortable environments.

But martyrs who gave their lives for their faith weren’t also fapping before getting tossed in the arena with lions or gladiators. The apostles didn’t fap to escape their persecution. Jesus, who is to be our example primarily—- didn’t fap or have sexual relationships.

Fapping is a vice that requires solitude and self hate to achieve. Chastity is a virtue that requires solitude and self love to achieve.
When we value ourselves the way we were designed, per our Creator, it is hilarious to imagine fapping in a corner.

Given Christ died because Of it, and because it will cause my moral decline and ultimately death if I continue in it, i vote to scrap the human construct of minor and major sins.

 

It's OK, no need to apologize.

 

You are welcome. It has been a civilised discussion and that suits me. I also thank you for not resorting to insults etc.

Your comments here prompted me to re-read Genesis 2 & 3. There is no inference given to your theory about the sin in the Garden of Eden. Every time, without exception, it is the eating of fruit from the forbidden tree that is the sin itself. :/

As I have already stated, I have no idea about Dante.

You cannot know that. Maybe they were. They were sinners, why would they definitely not masturbate under stress?

Finally, I have no problem with the words of Romans 6:23 - you had a typo there. Yes, major and minor sins would cause our death. That is why the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ is an undeserved kindness. Nevertheless, Both in Israel and in the first century Christian congregation, there were minor and major sins. These were viewed very differently by God and the consequences were very different. Some sins are heavy or weighty, others comparatively light.

 

Very much Appreciate your spirit friend. You are right in my typos too apologies.

I would also invite you to read on how God judges the heart of sin as sin. I didn’t infer that the heart contains sin —the Bible describes it that way.

Psalm 36:1
The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

James 1:15
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Psalm 7:9-10
9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
10 My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart. Here the trial happens for the heart—- not actions.

Here are 2 stories of people seeking to harm the king in the story of Esther are punished with death even though they did not carry out their plans. The king (xerxes) is a type (symbol) for God, and his bride is a type (symbol) for the church. This is a strong allegory for God executing judgment for sin planned not executed. That resides only in the heart/mind. Not an action.

Esther 7:5
Then the king Ahasuerus answered and said unto Esther the queen, Who is he, and where is he, that durst presume in his heart to do so?
(He is speaking of haman).

Job 1:5
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Solomon’s belief shows the heart can condemn the believer :

1 Chronicles 29:17
I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

Then we read 1kings 11:9–same guy:

And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice.

And the most obvious for me anyways, to leave you with is from Lucifer himself who committed sin in his heart long before he did anything about it in the book of Isaiah:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

Ezekiel 28:15

15You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

In any case, I enjoyed having to also go back and review. A good lesson indeed. ‘Twas my pleasure . Wish you the best in your walk to conquer and support for others @IGY