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Sobriety vs. Recovery

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by EyesWideOpen, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    Compliance with your wife is not recovery - Doing everything right because she tells you to is sobriety. Recovery is not about checklists or how many days you are sober. Recovery is about surrender.

    -The Betrayed, The Addicted, & The Expert

     
  2. Thank you for posting this. As you know, this very much applies to my situation at the moment. I believe understanding this is such a huge hurdle for many PA's...
     
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  3. phuck-porn!

    phuck-porn! Fapstronaut

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    If I had to chose 1 word to say "recovery is about _____", surrender wouldn't be in my top 5. but i'm kinda slow. be interested to hear thoughts on this...
     
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  4. kropo82

    kropo82 Fapstronaut

    But sometimes we need a catalyst. I knew porn was wrong even though years of escalating use. But it was not until my wife said that I had to stop or she would have to leave that I found the backbone to do anything to actually stop.

    That sounds like a great idea for a thread! If I had to choose one word it would be "integrity", though "honest growth" would be better if I could have two words.
     
  5. Strength And Light

    Strength And Light Fapstronaut

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    I think it might be somewhat different for everyone, and it's probably a bit clunky to boil it down to one word answers, but here's my top 5, in no particular order:
    1) Responsibility
    2) Self-improvement/Growth
    3) Acceptance/Surrender
    4) Discipline
    5) Recognizing/Prioritizing values

    Having now typed that, I'm not sure how accurate it is to over-simplify. Recovery is about many things. Spiritual exploration, gratitude, reverence, etc, etc forever.
     
  6. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    Just to note, these are not my words. I was quoting BAE.
    I am fine with the discussion continuing here, as I think it is all encompassing and not off topic at all, but if there are those that feel it belongs elsewhere, I'm all for it.

    I love the discussion and what can come from it.
     
  7. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    The last bit of the quote elicits some interesting thoughts.

    I am tempted to agree yet I must ask, "surrender to what?"

    Because in the typical rote of addiction recovery, following the checklists and earning your days are part of surrender to that particular recovery model. I don't say this to disagree, for I don't see such a kind of surrender as true recovery either.

    If I could use a quixotic term, I'd say that surrender to the truth is what leads to recovery. At least as far as I've experienced it, the truth is that:
    • complying with people does not provide recovery
    • going through checklists does not provide recovery
    • the number of days of sobriety does not provide recovery
    It has only been in surrendering to the understanding of such truth that I began to find recovery. I say this because I wasn't recovering from an addiction that I fell into, but I was recovering my true self that fell into an addiction. It is a subtle difference that bears enormous implications in practical meaning.

    My true self does not comply with people to make them happy, that is a form of slavery. My true self has other means by which to bring happiness to the people I love. I surrender to that practice of authenticity and find life instead of drudgery. In this, I am free and making things better, instead of stuck in a paradigm of sickness.

    The same goes for the rest.

    And yes, surrender is a great word for it because it means surrendering what I think of as right and acceptable to find what is right for me and true acceptance. It has meant facing rejection. So, there is a cost to this kind of surrender.

    But the cost is worth it. I've never been as free from PMO as I am now.


    P.S. real surrender also implies taking real responsibility, for if you surrender yourself in this fashion it means that you can no longer provide restitution through compliance, checklists or number of days but must become responsible to the deeper truths of the hurt one has caused to others. That is, you must become responsible to restoring joy and wholeness to others just as you do with restoring yourself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  8. Strength And Light

    Strength And Light Fapstronaut

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    Very well said. :)
     
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  9. Tannhauser

    Tannhauser Fapstronaut

    Sobriety is the first step to recovery, and recovery is the only way to ensure continued sobriety. At least that is how I view it.
     
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  10. BB7378

    BB7378 Fapstronaut

    I read this post and thought "oh that's one of the 12 steps, all the literature always talks about surrender". Turns out it is not actually mentioned in any of the 12 steps. I was really surprised by that.

    The 12 steps are all about admitting we are powerless. Fair enough not everyone is going to agree with this. Even I have struggled with this thought of powerlessness for my 15 months of sobriety. We all have a choice at the end of the day so powerlessness is just an excuse.

    But the admitting the powerlessness in the 12 steps is supposed to be followed promptly by surrendering that powerlessness to your higher power.

    And yes a higher power is also something I struggle with. But I have come to believe that the higher power is just what is right and wrong. So you admit powerlessness and surrender it to your higher power and ask "what is the right course of action, what is the good decision".

    I would agree that honesty is major in recovery, my biggest problem. But I think the principle is to surrender it all. My addiction was born in hatred, resentment, blame and entitlement. So I have a lot I need to surrender to. If I allow any of these behaviors to unfold then it leads nowhere good for me.

    It is also insane when you actually take a minute to think about this addictive cycle and any other addictive cycle. Why do we actively seek ways to destroy our own lives time and time again? Food for thought about the powerlessness.
     
  11. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    Because we are acting out our inner narratives about how much we hate ourselves and our own lives. At least, that was a part of my story. Finding out I could be loved, surrendering to care...that changed me.
     
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  12. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    The teacup asks the teapot, “why is the water hot?”

    “To make tea, of course, my dear teacup.”

    I’d just like to enjoy the tea. What I can tell you is that my ‘misnomer’ tea has done me wonders. It is a simple thing. When you are your own enemy, all kinds of strange, irrational and self-destructive behaviour will follow. The exact mechanisms and logical processes you are trying to reach for to adequately explain this phenomena...do all shoes fit all feet? These shoes fit my feet. Will they fit yours? That’s for you to decide.

    But I can tell you this, self-hatred can do some really twisted things to a person. It doesn’t mean all addiction comes from it, but for me, oh boy...what a number I did to myself just because I didn’t care for who or what I became. The thing which hurt me in self-hatred called upon my desires and produced the actions that made me further hate myself. As I’ve taken care of ridding myself of self-hatred, PMO addiction went away all on its own. I couldn’t imagine anyone being with someone as unlovable as I was, so I comforted myself in that pain with unlovable things and the momentary relief only drove me deeper. I was not so much a PMO-Addict as I was a broken person who needed PMO to cope with extreme isolation and loneliness.

    Because, you know, if I was worthless and unlovable and despicable why should I deny myself these unlovable, worthless & despicable pleasures? You can see this much right? We’re talking about the same thing from two different perspectives.

    You’re talking about the action of the teacup.

    I’m saying that my teapot that filled my teacup was all kinds of dirty.

    No matter how I tried to control that cup, I eventually needed a drink. If not PMO, then the taint of self-hatred leached out to infect me in other ways. Once I dealt with the source, the root issues, I can drink as much tea as I like. Not PMO, ofc...but the sweet things which give me peace, comfort and rest.

    So, maybe you had a different battle and thus the narrative of self-hatred doesn’t make sense to you. For that, for you, I’d be thankful. It was hell. Addiction can come in from many ways. All that was just a part of mine, doesn’t need to fit everyone...but hey, I hope it helps someone.

    Hope this helps you understand.
     
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  13. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    I'm glad something from my experience was able to cross over the boundary of communication for your understanding.

    Suicide can be rooted in self-hatred for sure, it's the ultimate statement of how much someone feels like they'll never amount to anything. If I hate who I am so much that I can't live myself anymore, yeah... It can be rooted in other things too though...humans are such complex things, are we?

    To illustrate this self-hatred/PMO-addiction from another light for you, if I never had an issue with self-hatred and was at peace with myself and happy just for what life had for me day-by-day...I'm pretty sure I'd never have become addicted to PMO in the first place. Or, at least, if I ever did fall into the PMO-trap my journey out of it would have worked with the rote methods of addiction recovery and not have taken me nearly two decades XD

    Because, ofc, all parts of the PMO-addiction cycle are still there to be used no matter what. But add in deeply rooted personal issues and it's like adding fuel into the fire, or trying to climb the proverbial mountain with broken legs.

    Which brings us back to surrender. I needed to give up my self-hatred. As twisted and illogical as it sounds, it had become so much of my identity that giving it up felt like I was destroying myself. Because self-hatred comes along with all sorts of other mechanisms that help you get by in life, like the whole victim mentality, I was playing the victim like an actor gunning for an Oscar. I could make almost anyone pity me. It was so unhealthy, but it was how I could get a few little scraps of attention. So I needed to surrender that because it was surely keeping me wrapped up in self-hatred.

    Surrendering to the idea that people could love me...ehh...

    Really did feel like I lost a war, but no one wins in the fight against themselves, do they? :)
     
  14. BB7378

    BB7378 Fapstronaut

    Yes I'm not referring to pmo in that statement. I'm referring to something similar to what @letter is getting at.

    I recently read in the white book of SA our addiction is an extension of something greater that has went wrong in our lives.

    And I totally agree my pmo addiction was something to soothe. I'm not so sure it was self hatred, more of a hatred for my mother and father and the world. They ripped everything from me and I hated them for it. But I never told anyone about it. Family members asked and even my parents if I was doing ok but I always lied and was nice to everyone's face. But I wasn't alright and I was pointing the finger of blame behind everyone's back. I was the biggest victim there ever was so full of self pity and feeding of the pity I was getting from others. The pmo was a distraction to get by, to escape this horrible life that I didn't deserve in my hate filled head.

    My attitudes and way of being is what I'm referring to. I have been 14 months sober but lied for so much of those 14 months. I finally got a full disclosure out after 12months. It was about the fifth attempt, it was a really staggered disclosure. It always included what I'd been caught on. But even 6 weeks later I chose a lie over my wife and children.

    This resonated, the lies are like part of my fiber, they are what I've survived on for 30 years. And all my sick attitudes, I've used them so much it's like they are woven into my being. I am at least aware of all this and want to be different. I don't want these behaviors to be part of me anymore and I am actively seeking to rid myself of them.

    I'm not doing the best job I could be but I'm not going to let it stop me.
     
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  15. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    Just being aware of what you are battling is a huge step forward, and yeah, even just coming to be aware of one's true issues can take some guts.

    Hey, just a little bit of encouragement for you. People can be like gardens. Yeah, some weeds have grown in. We gotta rip them out and make sure to plant something good in their place so that the weeds don't come back. But it's always a process, you know? You just do what you can with the skills you've got, learn as you go and become a better and better gardener and one day you'll realize that you're in the middle of an awesome garden.

    At least that was my journey. I can't tell you how badly it went when I tried to uproot everything all at once because I just wanted it all over and done with. Yeah, I could tear some stuff up, but without learning the latter part of putting better things into practice to take the place of the old stuff?? It always just came right back. The ways I failed have been so embarrassing XD

    Hey, maybe you can do better than I?? But if this takes longer than you'd hope, don't get down on yourself, it's okay for it to be a process. I mean, yeah, you really are changing yourself and that can be a brutal thing to go through. We can only ever do our best, right?

    Hopefully, your loved ones can see this and support you as you make your way.
     
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  16. "A man in recovery, it's the internal motivation that drives him, not the external stuff."

    From the expert, really crystallises it for me - the big difference between sobriety and recovery?
     
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  17. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    I'm so glad you've made these realizations and are working to heal. Your words remind me of my husband - woven into his being.
     
  18. BB7378

    BB7378 Fapstronaut

    My working to heal has been a struggle. I have been sober physically. But the attitudes are not so easy for me to shift. Like the lies they are what I go to, they are my defense mechanisms and I have lived life relying on them so heavily. I am basically a dry drunk. I have been asked to leave my house by my wife and our relationship is in a million pieces. I have hurt my wife so much it is unimaginable. I'm trying to find the good person that is inside me, it is not easy though.

    Thank you for your kind words. I had read some of your journal and as all SO's dealing with any PA your situation is a terrible one to be in. I do hope you can find some kind of peace in the insanity this warped addiction has caused in your life.
     
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  19. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    That "good" person is in there. We are all born with basic human dignity and you are no exception. If you want to save your relationship, please fight for your wife. I am preparing to leave my home, but I have to admit that, even at this late date, if my husband would show any real intention to change, it would get my attention. I would be very skeptical and very hurt, but I would listen.
     
  20. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    I re-read this thread and...
    Maybe a really good way to think about it?
     
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