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I used to like Ellen Page... But now i'm conviced she's a moron.

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by SolitaryScribe, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainm...ously-anti-lgbtq-church/ar-BBTl6HD?ocid=ientp

    As mentioned in the article above, she slams Chris Pratt for attending what she calls a "homophobic" church because they do no affirm the homosexual lifestyle.

    This seems to be a stream of events where she's bitching and complaining about all the misogyny and homophobia around her.

    This article hit a nerve. She's attacking an actor for talking about his belief's on an interview he had with Stephan Colbert. Chris Pratt didn't even mention anything about homosexuality or LGBTQ for that matter. He was just talking about a fast he did.

    Now what really irks me is she has a problem with the church he attends which is known as the hillsong church, which is pretty much the church all celebrities attend. This church is the most liberal you can get in Christianity. The pastor himself has issued that he has no issues with gays attending and worshipping with them. He welcomes all gays, however does not affirm their lifestyle, which is fair. There is nothing wrong with accepting a person but not accepting their lifestyle. Just because I don't except a lifestyle of partying and having promiscuous sex, does not mean that I reject that person. If I don't affirm to smoking does not mean I reject smokers.

    Ellens issue is she identifies people solely by their sexuality. To her, rejecting homosexuality is the same as rejecting those with homosexual desires... which is plainly false.

    People are not their desires, People are not their religion, People are not their political affiliation. People are people... This identity politics B.S is completely out of wack!
    I think her issue is, she's loosing relevance and is trying any way to play victim to stay in the spotlight.
     
    Garek, Re:Born, Greenblanket and 6 others like this.
  2. Indeed, Hillsong is "gay".
     
  3. She sounds dumb. But in other news, Chris Pratt continues to be one of my favorite celebrities! It's so cool to hear someone who's as famous as him talking about God so much and so often.
     
  4. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Agreed! I think there's too much faith bashing now a days so it's refreshing to see someone outspoken about their faith who is popular in Hollywood.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  5. It's also refreshing to see how many people are totally fine with it and arent hateful. Clearly Ellen Page isnt one of those people, but in some of his speeches, like at the... cant remember the awards show it was. Oscar's or Golden Globes or something, he gave a speech and talked about God a lot, and a lot of the crowd was clapping and cheering. People weren't just sitting there awkwardly or booing him or anything.
     
  6. Ra's Al Ghul

    Ra's Al Ghul Fapstronaut

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    Well, I get that unfortunately many are Pro Sodomy. It's just cringey that they have to do a public declaration that they are Butthurt when others don't share their Pro Sodomy view.

    If you're not so secure enough in your own beliefs that you need others to openly agree with you or else you'll demonize them, you were never secure in your own belief to begin with.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  7. The way Hillsong NYC handled the whole situation with that gay member was so ridiculous that they ended up making both conservatives and liberals mad. It wouldn't surprise if Carl Lentz gets caught up a massive scandal in the future... I don't trust him one bit.
    That Hillsong Pastor Chris Pratt quoted in the interview was recently sued for plagiarism and the way she conducted herself regarding the issue was disgusting!
    So many lies and deceit in that church and I haven't even mentioned the child abuse coverup!

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2019
  8. It's not. It's rather conservative. It's interesting as an Orthodox you say this since I would say the Orthodox Church is far more liberal than Hillsong. A rejection of penal substitution is a liberal theological viewpoint. Your interpretation of the Bible is very liberal (that's why I was so impressed with it). There's actually a lot of confusion about what a liberal Christian is on this forum. Being a liberal Christian doesn't automatically mean you have liberal political views, it means you have a form of liberal theology. You have liberal Christians who vote for conservative political parties and some who go liberal but most have the view that all political parties are as bad as each other and Jesus is better. It's true that most are in favour of gay marriage but not all. As for abortion, it's very divided and brings about the biggest debates between liberal Christians. A great number of liberal Christians like the Orthodox Church and want to join it. As a liberal Christian myself I would much go to the Orthodox Church than Hillsong.
     
  9. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I wouldn't use the world "liberal" when speaking about orthodox Christianity just because it comes with the connotation of politics. The orthodox church is neither conservative or liberal, it doesn't have a political stance. There are values that conservatives have that are orthodox and values that liberals have that are also orthodox. What I mean by hillsong being extremely liberal, is it heavily identifies with the left. Sure there are some views that don't alien with the left, but in general it's a type of Christianity that doesn't have much strict dogmas. Most evangelical branches are more liberal, and you can pretty much believe in whatever you want and still be an evangelical Christian.

    When it comes to orthodoxy however, there is a very stern line that you do not pass. Orthodoxy is heavily based on the tradition passed down by the early church fathers, with that comes the method on how to interpret the bible and how to understand proper Christian theology. The issue with Protestantism is that they don't have the traditions of the church to guide them in how to interpret the bible. Hence the 40 million denominations. And this is why you also have groups of protestants who interpret the whole bible literally.
     
  10. TheCatholicCommando

    TheCatholicCommando Fapstronaut

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    Anti-religious bigotry is way more prevalent than bigotry from religious people towards the non-religious.

    The vast majority of Christian denominations hold with the belief that homosexuality is a sin.

    First of all:
    Why do atheists care what a church has to say?

    Second of all:
    Believing something is sinful is not the same as hating the sinner. In fact the Bible says to love the sinner and hate the sin.

    There are so many sins like homosexuality that most mainstream christians are willing to tolerate people being able to do of their own free will if they choose.

    The definition of bigotry is intolerance of opposing beliefs. All of the bigotry here is coming from Ellen Page.

    Well done to Chris Pratt. The best thing to come out of Hollywood since Casablanca!
     
  11. Fair point but I think atheists would say that they care what the church has to say about certain issues if the church has a political and social influence on the culture. That's why antitheists exist... they oppose the church because of its political and social influence on their life and the lives of others. It's kinda like how Christians would oppose any law that's antithetical to the teachings of scripture.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2019
    SolitaryScribe and WretchedBoy like this.
  12. LEPAGE

    LEPAGE Fapstronaut

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    I still remember her as Jim Lahey's daughter. Those were the days.

    It's looking more and more every day that the hate crime incident she was referencing was a hoax, so...

    Basically, she seems to be a professional lesbian now. I never see her in films, but then I am probably unlikely to ever watch anything she would be in.
     
  13. WretchedBoy

    WretchedBoy Fapstronaut

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    Hi @TheCatholicCommando :

    First of all: It is not my intention to offend you or your believes. You asked a question and I want to offer you an answer from my subjective point of view.

    Atheists care because churches tend to claim powerful positions in areas like e.g. politics, social life, culture or arts. All of these areas have direct and heavy influence on everyones life, not only on the lifes of believers. They don´t claim these positions by competence or qualification but rather through clinching on to out-aged traditions that from their point of view don´t have to be adjusted or changed although the world, society and culture around them obviously changed over time (and does so every single day). Connecting that with the fact that churches tend to hush up cases of child abuse or embezzlement of money for example can eventually lead one to the thought that it might be an okay idea to question the concept of religious belief for him or herself. If than additionally one realizes that there is an impressive lack of facts and proves for the cornerstones of the world-views most religions try to establish one might start to feel that the whole concept does not fit into his or her life anymore.


    About that second part of your post:

    In your post you go on and declare homosexuality a sin - which directly connotates homosexuality as "bad" or "wrong".
    In the same post you define bigotry as the "intolerance of opposing beliefs".

    For me this combination of statements ironically feels pretty bigot... ;)
     
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  14. TheCatholicCommando

    TheCatholicCommando Fapstronaut

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    Sure but it’s not like anyone is under an obligation to listen to what the church has to say. if they do its of their own accord
     
  15. TheCatholicCommando

    TheCatholicCommando Fapstronaut

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    Hi, I appreciate your perspective on this.

    As regards the influence that Church’s can have in society, I understand the concerns some atheists could have. However if a church or any religious institution is in a position of influence, it’s probably because it has a significant number of voluntary adherents. I don’t think there’s anything particularly sinister about the notion a church will exert a considerable amount of influence on it’s adherents. And as for non-adherents, well not to be dismissive but they are under no obligation to give a damn what a church has to say about anything. I just don’t see how a church is infringing on the rights of non religious people by promulgating it’s message. Is the Church not entitled to free speech too? The nature of free speech is that you can say whatever you want no matter how crazy other people think it is and nobody is under an obligation to listen to you unless they want to.

    As regards the last part of your post, I didnt just arbitrarily declare homsexuality a sin, Christian churches and frankly most denominations of all 3 abrahamic faiths have believed this for centuries.

    And you’re right, this does connotate to homosexuality being “bad” and “wrong” but that doesnt mean that all gay people are bad, Christianity never says to hate on the sinner.

    This isnt bigotry. As I said bigotry is intolerance of opposing opinions. One can believe that homosexuality is a sin and still acknowledge the right of others to think otherwise and to freely engage in that activity. Christians ain’t intolerant.

    Just a note on the abuse, embezzlement etc. First of all, I dont know a single ordinary Catholic that is in favor of clerical abuses and I think those that do succumb to the in-group/out-group mentality by making excuses for it are 100% wrong to.
    Second, I think citing these cases isnt an arguement against Christian doctrine, it’s an arguement against those individuals who had the responsability of enforcing the doctrine and abused their power.
    Nobody ever made the claim they were all morally infallible saints. The only thing we can infer about christianity from their crimes is that religious people are still capable of evil things.
    Their crimes shouldnt be used as a club against christianity as a whole.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
    Garek likes this.
  16. I make the following observations in good faith. That is, I am interested in getting at what is actually true and useful much more than I am interested in winning arguments or being right. Of course I am human so I fall prey to ordinary feelings, but in general, I aim for "what's right" and not "who's right". I make this statement to keep my side of the street as clear as possible as internet forums are notorious for their lack of civility and I don't want to bring any of that here.

    Describing peoples religions as "out-aged traditions" is unhelpful, even if you think that description is accurate. Even if that description IS accurate, it is still unhelpful. In general, people cling to their religions because they find them personally helpful, even if they fail to grasp all the doctrine, or when some aspects of the religion are widely agreed to be out of sync with reality. No system of thought is perfect, but the worlds religions are generally useful to their practitioners when it comes to finding meaning and purpose in their lives. The modern atheist movement isn't offering much with regards to the betterment of individuals (though its possible I am misinformed on this point, my long dead association with that movement was based more on my desire to feel I was superior to others than my desire to improve the quality of my character).

    The statement "churches tend to hush up cases of child abuse or embezzlement of money" is overly broad. I can make the exact same statement about the public school system in the United States or the culture of Hollywood. That sexual and financial misconduct tends to be covered up is a fact of life in organizations of every sort, it is not a fact that is exclusive to churches. The pedophilia among a subset of Catholic priests is deplorable. The misogyny in Islam is something in need of reform. But it is a mistake to throw out religious traditions as worthy of admiration and respect do to highly publicized bad actors.

    If I have misrepresented anything you said in your original post that was not my intent. If I have made inferences about your comments that fail to reflect and respond to your actual positions and thoughts then I apologize. I am interested in any response or thoughts you have on my reply to your post and will make a good faith attempt to understand and respond appropriately to what you have to say.
     
    TheCatholicCommando likes this.
  17. jk243

    jk243 Fapstronaut

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    The church is being more and more wordly. Jésus called us To be radical. Facts don't care about feelings. Homosexuality is a sin. Those churches want more the approval of thé world (by attracting stars like Justin Bieber) then from God. They rarely preach repentance, it is all about self-care ...
     
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  18. WretchedBoy

    WretchedBoy Fapstronaut

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    Sure thing. I just believe that history has delivered more than enough examples for why religion should not be mixed with politics.
    Aside from that the thing with freedom is that it ends where another persons freedom begins... if a church is infleuntial enough to e.g. influence the laws according to abortion or the legality of civilly same-sex-marriages this directly cuts into others life and freedom.

    According to the bigotry-part of our conversation: I wanted to highlight, that for me the act of declaring homosexuality (something that defines many peoples lifes in a very fundamental way) as a sin is a good example for "intolerance of opposing opinions" and therefore fits exactly into your own definition of bigotry.

    On the abuse-stuff: this was not ment as an argument against churches per se. It was ment as an argument against the fact that churches tend to play themselves into kind of a special position where laws can be stretched or even ignored. It is the way churches are using their power that disturbs me, not the idea of a religious community in itself.
     
  19. WretchedBoy

    WretchedBoy Fapstronaut

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    Hey Garek, I appreciate your input to this conversation!

    You are absolutely right and I want to apologize for that. I should have found a way to express this in a more neutral way.

    I don´t identify with what you call "the modern atheist movement" at all so I can´t say anything to what they are offering. But I do understand the part with feeling superior to others and want to stress out that this is not the reason I started this conversation. I enjoy to exchange on important topics like this one as I am interested in other peoples world-views and ideas and didn´t mean to offend anyone.

    You could but that would be whataboutism. We are not talking schools or the US or Hollywood, we are talking churches. Every church declares to deliver rules for a "good" life in one way or another. Defending or protecting sex offenders in order to avoid a public scandal (or in any other means) is wrong and makes their whole concept seem hypocritical for me.

    Hope we can keep this going in a laid-back and still serious way. Thanks for your response!
     

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