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My goal is to PMO sensibly. Is that realistic?

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by learning, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    First of all, I know this idea sounds a bit unrealistic. I gave up alcohol about 18 years ago, and then I made the mistake of accepting one drink at a Christmas party. That one innocent drink gradually reawakened my drinking problem. It was about 6 years of living with a drinking problem before I could finally stop again.

    Drinking alcohol sensibly isn't realistic for me, so why do I think PMOing sensibly is realistic? The answer is that I HOPE it is realistic because I don't want a sex partner and I don't want to go monk-mode. About 10 years ago I was able to abstain from all sex for 2 years, but I started teasing myself by watching movies with pretty women and eventually that caused me to slip-up. I think I wasn't happy abstaining.

    So monk-mode forever is probably the most realistic option for me, but I would rather be able to enjoy PMO without allowing it to get out of control. I have made a little progress over the past year. My PMO sessions are sometimes only 4 hours compared to 8 hours a year ago, and I improved my stimulation technique so it is less likely to injure me now. That's something.

    Also I should add that I am 52. Going monk-mode isn't as hard today as it would have been when I was young. The main problem is that looking at pretty women makes me feel a little better about life, and I hate to give that up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  2. CTRL + DEL

    CTRL + DEL Fapstronaut

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    You were doing so well until we reached these lines.

    And then everything just died.


    If you need others to validate your pleasures and make you feel better about yourself, I'm afraid your experience has taught you little.

    What you need right now isn't nofap; it's a serious evaluation of your principles in life.

    Because true pleasure comes from within. You don't need to look at others to derive genuine joy; it's just there.


    But to directly answer the Q in the title, I think the answer depends on you, but in no way is PMO healthy, even if it's once a year. MO maybe; there are medically proven benefits to it you may want to consider I suppose. But it's just a waste if energy tbh. But back to topic:

    Periodic PMO? Never a good idea.
    Periodic MO? Perhaps but it's playing with fire.
     
  3. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    There is a lot of truth to what you say, but maybe it is more true for some people than it is for me. Depression and social anxiety are the two psychological problems that have dogged me throughout my life. On some days it can be difficult to do anything. Like I might think I should get up out my chair and eat something, but then I begin considering all the negatives of everything I consider eating. So I just sit there, staring at the wall, hungry but unable to think of anything I can eat. I might start to move and then my body stops as I consider all the negatives about everything. Depression is a complex thing. They used to say "put on a happy face" or "turn that frown upside down" to depressed people. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't.

    But my point is that sexual arousal seems to change the chemicals in my brain so that I can function for several days. I've tried to research the neurotransmitters involved in sex, because that might give me a clue to what is off in my brain, but it is too complicated for me.

    Sexual arousal isn't the only thing that helps my brain function. Exercise is also important. I also take CBD and l-theanine and B-12.

    And, like I think you were suggesting, the right sort of thinking can help a person feel better. Sometimes I can go into a light trance and feel better. Prayer helps me too. So there is a lot of truth to what you say, but also it probably takes a lot more effort for my brain to be normal than it does for most people.
     
  4. IGY

    IGY Fapstronaut
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    That is an improvement, of course. I would argue that having any porn in your life at all is harmful and 4 hours edging to porn is incredibly harmful.
    If they were not caused by masturbation and/or porn, they have certainly been exacerbated by them. Continuing to indulge will simply ensure that your depression and social anxiety will remain until the end of your days. You should stop!
    I can follow what you are saying, but you are missing something hugely important. When you do not engage in instant sexual gratification, you will get withdrawal symptoms. So, when you do indulge it gives you the impression that PMO helps you function better. But all you are doing is temporarily assuaging the craving of your addiction. Porn is poison man.
     
  5. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    Thanks, those are good points.

    I have been trying to remember how I felt psychologically when I managed to abstain from all things sexual for 2 years. That might be a clue in knowing if sexual arousal is helpful or harmful to my brain's chemical balance. Unfortunately, about a week after starting to abstain I started having psychosis. I didn't realize I was psychotic and I didn't get any treatment. So I became extremely religious (religiosity). I was praying and fasting and reading books about monks all the time. I also wasn't exercising and cardio exercise helps with depression for me.

    So I just don't know the effect of abstaining from all sexual things, because there were so many other factors at work. I remember that everything seemed gray and stale mostly, but I was able to function. I don't remember being depressed, but it wasn't a lot of fun either. "Grim" is how I felt. I was grimly doing a lot of religious things that weren't particularly fun.

    I wonder if some of my neurotransmitter problems were created by my lifelong PMO habit. I have hyperosmia (supersensitive to odors) that has developed over the past 3 or 4 years (coinciding with my PMO sessions becoming longer). I may be mistaken, but I think the hyperosmia is worse when I feel down after a PMO binge. Like I PMOed for 4 hours this morning, and I started noticing overpowering scents that in reality were faint or imaginary scents.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  6. IGY

    IGY Fapstronaut
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    Interesting hearing part of your story. You cannot possibly recover all the time you are still edging. Please read this. So,
    I suggest that you reset your counter to zero; start the NoFap challenge (no P or M or O) for at least 1 month. You won't reboot in that time, but it is long enough for you to experience tangible benefits. Perhaps losing the hyperosmia will be one.
     
    learning likes this.
  7. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    Hmmmm. I need to think and make a plan. I need to determine if sexual arousal is like a vitamin that I need for depression or if as you suggest I am addicted. I also wonder about gradual reduction rather than cold turkey. That is what I have been doing recently, because I can't seem to function when I abstain.

    As an example of my problem. I pinched a nerve in my hip or sacrum trying to move a table on Wednesday of last week. I had been looking at sexy youtube videos and stimulating myself for about an hour before work every morning. But I couldn't risk doing that with the pinched nerve, so I abstained entirely until Friday or Saturday. I was feeling terrible as the week progressed even though my hip pain was diminishing. Basically I felt like I had a hangover from drinking too much, but it wouldn't go away.

    Anyway, I will post some more thoughts tonight. I have to start work now. Hopefully keep an eye out and share your thoughts if you can. Thanks.
     
  8. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    No, because porn and masturbation are abnormal and degenerate in the first place. "PMO sensibly" is an oxymoron. Like "using meth sensibly"

    Don't get me wrong, it's great that you're making progress and reducing the masturbation frequency or duration, but you have to aim to 0.
     
    learning likes this.
  9. Have you been getting professional help for your psychosis? It's something you might want to consider putting in place while you can, as when in the depths of phases of psychosis, people can often find themselves in denial of needing any help- so it's better if that help is in place already.
     
    learning likes this.
  10. IGY

    IGY Fapstronaut
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    Yes, I shall share what thoughts I have. It is appropriate that your username is learning. I sense that some learning is what you need. If I am wrong in this perception, I apologise as I have no wish or reason to patronise you. What I am getting at is that you need to understand the process of addiction to high speed internet porn (specifically) and the awful damage it does to our brain. A more thorough knowledge of this will provide the extra motivation you need to tackle this.

    The best resource to educate yourself on all of this is the website: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com Click on: Start Here
     
    learning likes this.
  11. Gota

    Gota Fapstronaut

    I'm somehow sceptical about your idea of 'manageable PMO'. Mostly because edging and prolonged masturbation are harmful for the brain. Of course 1 hour masturbation sessions are much better than 8 hours, but it's still bad. Short term it might help you, but long term it's detrimental. I really doubt you can cure the depression with masturbation. But I can understand you. I also have depression for many years and after I abstained from PMO I needed something to distract myself, fill the void and get some thrill, so I started to gamble. I don't gamble with real money (and I doubt I will ever will), but being engaged in the game helps me with depression and anxiety. I noticed that when I play a little I feel better mentally, my anxiety subsides.

    I have been reading your journal for a long time and know your situation well. If I were you I'd start a medical treatment and go 'hard mode' for at least one year. It might take months until you will see some improvement and most likely your depression will get worse in the first monts of treatment (at least this is what happens to me everytime I start to take medication), but I think it's the only proven way to get out of this closed circle. When you will feel better and will have more energy you could address your business and family issues and maybe initiate some changes there.
     
    learning likes this.
  12. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    The psychosis was not typical of what I have read. In a way it only lasted 2 weeks, but in another way it lasted 2 years, and in a further way it lasted about 8 years. I hope that I am one of those lucky people whose first episode of psychosis is also the last. I don't want to take anti-psychotic medications unless it is necessary, because they have some side effects. I see a psychotherapist once a month for other problems (stress, burnout, depression, family business problems), but mostly I hope that it never happens again.

    Of course I totally agree with what you say. When I had psychosis I thought it was spiritual and I didn't want anybody to know what I was experiencing. I didn't get any treatment at all, and as a result I gave away most of my retirement savings (hoping to become a penniless monk). I might have even hurt somebody. I remember early in the episode thinking about loading a gun for self defense, but I thought my enemies were magical/spiritual and that they would try to trick me into shooting an innocent person. Looking back it was pretty dangerous to be delusional and hallucinating while nobody around me realized there was anything wrong with me.

    On one hand I like talking about psychosis, but on the other hand anything I write about it seems to be both an understatement and an overstatement and always missing important details. When I look back, I get depressed because none of it makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  13. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    Drugs that affect serotonin seem to make me feel awful. I was recently experimenting with ashwagandha because it is supposed to increase testosterone and help with depression/anxiety and lots of other benefits. Unfortunately ashwagandha is like a roller coaster ride for me psychologically. When the ashwagandha wears off I feel wretched and then I feel like the only solution is to take more ashwagandha. The same thing happens when I take most over-the-counter cold medicines. The withdrawal is so unpleasant that I refuse to take cold medicine now. (CBD actually works as a cold medicine better anyway.) ... But anyway that awful feeling of withdrawal is similar to how I feel when I take most antidepressants. The only thing I can think is that my brain doesn't react will to changes in serotonin. The earliest antidepressants were actually derived from cold medicines, and ashwagandha apparently affects serotonin. So serotonin seems to be the commonality between all these drugs that make me feel horrible.

    GABA on the other hand seems to be helpful. Scopolamine was the first drug I found that seemed to help depression, but it is for motion sickness and it is too expensive and too harsh. Scopolamine and ketamine are both being studied for their ability to rapidly cure people with drug-resistant depression. The researchers believe that these drugs are "gabaergic" (whatever that means LOL). So I have found that the supplements l-theanine and CBD are a milder and more practical way to boost the GABA in my brain. You might want to see if they help you too.

    On the PMO problem I am confused. If I didn't have the depression problem probably I could totally abstain from everything sexual. I don't have the libido driving me to PMO - my drive is depression and anhedonia. In the past, I tried to ride my exercise at least an hour every single day to help with depression, but I'm not certain if I can do that now. Partly I'm out of shape and out of the habit, but also I'm getting older. PMO can make me feel better with a lot less effort, and that is why I hate to give it up entirely. When I wake up in the morning I usually feel awful, but 15 minutes of looking at sexy images usually fixes me. The problem is that I can never stop with 15 minutes. I go until the last possible moment and often that is 8 hours or more.
     
  14. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    Thanks, I will take a look at that website. I thought the video you linked earlier was helpful. I've been reading about causes for hyperosmia recently, and some of those causes could be linked to my PMO addiction. Some think that dopamine or serotonin can adjust our awareness of scents. Amphetamine addiction might damage the nerves that help us ignore scents. B12 might also be a cause of the nerve damage. Some of the chemicals in sexual arousal are similar to amphetamines.
     
  15. Itsmeagain

    Itsmeagain Fapstronaut

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    @learning,

    I believe you answered you own question. BTW, good for you fighting that alcohol addiction. I'm not there, but I always had to be careful. I have a tendency to get loaded in the week-ends...
    Anyway, I succeeded and went 180 days of no PMO in 2016. Look at me, I'm back! Hey, I re-introduce soft porn, or simple trigger-related surfing. I tried audio porn too...then I ended up being dealing with the same old after a while...
    The problem with porn is that once your brain is ready for something new, you keep looking for that new "hit"...time goes by, and before you know it, you are edging for hours, looking for the elusive clip that will do it!
    Be careful! To me, because I'm in a couple with my lovely wife, I have to limit or eliminate all porn, as I get ED out of it. I also get my wife pissed because of me looking at other women...then the comparison begins...

    My advice: If you valor your erection and you "may" (never say never) meet a lady one day, well P is not helping.
    Trust me, if I was single or divorcing, I may end up PMO'ing like a madman....so I can't speak for that.

    Good luck. Not everybody ends up having issues with P, but I do...
     
    learning likes this.
  16. Regarding CBD...you should know that cannabis is linked to psychosis, and may inflame symptoms on someone at risk.

    keep fighting
     
    learning likes this.
  17. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    I was aware of studies linking teenage use of marijuana to schizophrenia, but I assumed the risk was from THC rather than CBD. Of course most CBD contains trace amounts of THC. I think my greatest risk factor is stress and maybe hopelessness. When I had psychosis there were more delusions than hallucinations. I have read that delusional disorder happens to people who feel insignificant. The delusions make the sufferer the center of reality instead of an insignificant nobody. I often describe myself as a piece of litter blowing around on the side of the freeway as the world rushes by without me. My delusion was that God was calling me to be a monk. That explained all the bizarre hallucinations and it gave me a way to escape from my responsibility to be a bookkeeper in the family business making wages that I could earn flipping hamburgers at McDonalds (LOL). It's particularly painful for me, because I went to Caltech and was majoring in physics for the first two years of college. Then I became depressed (partly due to PMO and religious doubts and reliance on only a few close friends due to social anxiety), so I had switch to the easiest major available to graduate (engineering and applied science) and go into software engineering for a job. And it has been like that on and on through the decades. Whatever success or progress I make in life has been eventually wrecked by my psychological issues until now I am where I am.

    I am trying to learn to accept myself including my failings and see a purpose in my life so that I stop flogging myself psychologically. But easier said than done.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  18. 'The world may not know of my achievements, but they are achievements nonetheless' (In your case, dealing with the issues you've had to deal with)

    keep fighting
     
    learning likes this.
  19. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    Well I was trying to learn to have orgasms without ejaculating. Supposedly men can have multiple orgasms, and I thought that would solve the problem of my reduced frequency of PMO. In addition I began trying to increase the duration of my PMO sessions to make up for their reduced frequency, and that became edging. I didn't know how to accomplish the multiple orgasms other than a vague idea that it was prostate stimulation. So I was trying various means to stimulate the prostrate including anal toys, external pressure from my fingers, and so on. Nothing seemed to work and I felt that the efforts might eventually cause physical injury. ... Ironically I have learned how to experience the multiple orgasms without ejaculating and without any physical stimulation. At least I am less likely to injure myself this way, but I haven't solved anything. It isn't the solution I had imagined. I'm still a mess.

    If you have some understanding of the neurotransmitters it would be very helpful if you have time to give some ideas. I have tried to look at the things I have used for self medication of depression/anxiety and find a common neurotransmitter to all of them.
    - cardio exercise (i.e. "runner's high")
    - PMO
    - scopolamine
    - CBD
    - l-theanine
    At one time I thought it was PEA (phenylethylamine) and I tried some supplements without effect except for possibly causing a case of gastritis. Then more recently I have been thinking it is GABA. That is why I focus on CBD and l-theanine. There is also B12. I have a mutation that causes me to be have difficulty metabolizing B12 and marginally low B12 when I was tested. Apparently B12 deficiency causes depression, hyperosmia, dementia, etc.

    She has not been too concerned about a recurrence of psychosis and has been mostly pushing me to take antidepressants. My sister is a family doctor and has also pushed me in that direction, but when I have tried antidepressants in the past they have only made me feel worse. I think my serotonin must be abnormal such that the typical focus on serotonin is harmful instead of helpful. I would probably be willing to try a drug that focuses on GABA, because I have had some improvement with CBD and l-theanine.

    I live in the US. I will take a look at that assessment this evening. Unfortunately I am out of time this morning. I need to shower and start another work day. At least I didn't PMO this morning. (I guess that is a good thing LOL)

    This will give you a good idea of where you really stand. Real quick, what Country do you live in?[/QUOTE]
     
  20. 4DCreator

    4DCreator Fapstronaut

    This opinion has a very deep point in it. Couldn't agree more on it. Thanks for saving my time to writing a long comment. Opposite of depression is an expression. Go out and find new people into your life, join some clubs, find similar-minded friends, and so on. Please don't seat at home and wait in loneliness that something extraordinary will happen to you. Don't use your age as an excuse. You can build up your life at any age if your health is reasonable. Watching porn is bad even once a year as it was already said. You are 52 and you still haven't found ways of how to connect to yourself. Work on it. Study self-parenting and self-healing. Try to find out why you have such an emptiness in you and fill it with your own love. Good luck.
     
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