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Overcoming Sexual Fantasy

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Deleted Account, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. Fresh Start 12

    Fresh Start 12 Fapstronaut

    Thanks for this post. Some good discussion about something that is a major issue for me and has been a huge struggle between my wife and I since disclosure of my affairs and regular porn use. I have struggled to let it go - it seems like one of those things that allows me to use my God given imagination in an area that is exciting and fun. But I agree that it becomes a gateway. I've seen it for sure in my life so far. It's interesting that so many sex help books and counselors say that fantasy is perfectly normal and healthy and can be used to keep things interesting in the bedroom, etc. Post affair counseling books have said the same.

    I find that they fuel each other though. So regular porn use enhances and gives fodder for our fantasies, and in turn fantasies lead us back to porn. Hmmmm. But I struggle so with giving this up. It feels like my mind is something I want to hold as my own and that I have the right to think what I want. And yet... the battle is in the mind... because out of our minds and hearts, our lives follow, with all the ensuing actions that mess up other people's and our own lives. Sigh.
     
  2. The advice people give may not always apply to addicts, and so we have to view everything through that lens. I can say to someone that a glass of wine settles the stomach and helps digest food better (not sure if that's true, but just an example), but an alcoholic would obviously see that advice as inapplicable.

    Indulging in sexual fantasy is what's dangerous. We can't avoid sexual thoughts that come into our heads, but as with any emotion it's the response that matters. So often my response is to latch onto it, cultivate it, and allow it to grow almost to the point of obsession. That's the danger. It's what led to my last reset among other reasons, but I found myself actually carving out time to indulge in sexual fantasy. It's no wonder PMO followed.

    Hopefully the techniques listed in my original post can help manage them and prevent indulging in them and using them as a p-sub. You can do this! I'm still learning how, but it's a journey for all of us.
     
  3. skepticaljoe

    skepticaljoe Fapstronaut

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    thanks for posting this, I am trying to apply it to my life. I often repeat the mantra about how it isn't real and is entirely fantasy and this helps me get through.
    so, if I get sexual fantasies without looking at porn, but I do not masturbate. then does this set me back and does it mean technically I am starting from scratch again? (even though I haven't masturbated).
     
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  4. Love this thread, on watch list, including emails.

    Usually, my fantasies are not about porn, they are about women I know a bit, and I imagine them being attracted to the King of seduction aka me. Yeah right...

    Sometimes, if using fantasies doesn't bring to O, then I would use M.

    Hopefully NoFap can help with all that.
     
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  5. Rewiring our brains is a process. Sometimes it's a nice walk through a beautiful park, and other times we're trying to cross the street in the midst of a hurricane. Succumbing to triggers impedes progress. I believe sexual fantasy to be an incredibly strong, effective trigger that leads to PMO. It's a gateway drug if you will.

    There's no stopping our fantasies. It's like not thinking about a pink elephant - do it know. Stop thinking about it. It's not possible. But it's how we respond to fantasy that makes the difference. We can choose to indulge in it or we can allow it to pass without it becoming embedded. Fantasies will reduce over time the longer you abstain from porn, but it takes time.

    To answer your question, everyone's parameters are different. I've known some who believe any sexual fantasy is a reset. I'm not so hardcore. My parameters are no P and M. Sexual fantasy isn't there, so technically I can fantasize all I want and my counter is safe. However, experience has taught me that fantasy is my strongest trigger, so when I find myself fantasizing I'm in danger. How much danger fluctuates and lessens the longer you are into a reboot, but it's still a danger. So no, I don't think you start from scratch again when you fantasize. But then again, you're not starting from scratch again when you masturbate either, or if you reset to porn. The only guarantee in recovery is there will be setbacks. It's possible to abandon recovery and get lost in the addiction cycle again, and that's when a start from scratch is necessary, but when setbacks or resets or even relapses occur, recovery is about getting back up, dusting yourself off, and continuing on. Learn from your mistakes. Learn about your weaknesses. Then you can put defenses in place.

    I had to do that with fantasy. It was trial and error. At one point I just gave myself permission to fantasize to see if that was the answer. It wasn't - dramatic fail, but I learned nonetheless. Determine your parameters and then stick to them. For example, mine are no P and M (I'm married so I keep the O). Edging crosses a line for me. If I edge, regardless of whether I O or not, it breaks my parameters and it's a reset. That may or may not work for you, but you'll learn as you go. Welcome to the forums!
     
  6. I'm with you. My fantasies have been all over the place. That's what's so beautiful and dangerous about them. I can escape into a new world, a revision of my past, a porn scene that I could write better, a woman I just interacted with or saw from afar, there's no boundaries. Fantasy engages the exact same mechanisms in the brain as porn does, and it's always available, which is why it's so important for recovery to manage it. People can go months without viewing porn while fantasizing, but their brains will be no closer to rewiring, and that's the ultimate goal.

    Fantasy is an escape mechanism just as porn. Recovery is also about learning to deal with the things we wish to escape from using healthy responses. Fantasy isn't one of those ways. Keep at it, don't give up, and things will get better. It will take a long time, it has for me, and I'm still in right in the middle of it, but I promise it will get easier. You just have to get through a little hell first.
     
  7. BigOne79

    BigOne79 Fapstronaut

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    Well done sir! I am about one year the first week of November no PMO myself. Question, after one year were you still on the hardmode goal needing more time for recovery.
     
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  8. Hi Deamonswithin, It was a very thoughtful read. I like the part about SNAP. It's pretty sound Psych. The meditation is excellent, too. I've been a Transcendental meditateor since the 70's and even today it saves my butt when I get exhausted at work. I do a deep 5 min. med and it revives me for a few hours. I also work out at the gym six days a week, and have been for the last 40 years. I know it releases dopamine, but it keeps me level and energized. Sooo...
    Now there are a few places where we differ. I think my perspective is one of inclusion and self-love. I embrace my fantasies. That way I have no conflict, self-hate, internal argument or guilt to clutter my mind. I know if I'm approaching a relapse. The feeling level is unmistakable and I don't deny my feelings. Even with strong habits, I'm strong enough to redirect my thoughts. It does take practice and determination to develop that though. I think action is the key to getting a hold of change. Thoughts, it seems to me, are where it all begins. They lead to feelings, and in today's world feelings are given much to much power. Feelings are misrepresented these days as thinking. You can't think with your feelings. They are only good for moderating behavior. Finally, the last component of personality is behavior. If you don't do anything, then, nothing happens. I can easily see what behavior I am doing. It's pretty obvious. LOLOLOL So the solution for PMO is just to stop and pick something else to do. That is unless, like for myself a person enjoys it. I am more concerned about the symptoms which follow the behavior. So we are back to thinking. I have the discipline for myself to stop if that's my choice. For me, I can never get rid of thoughts in my mind no matter what they are. However, I may choose not to USE some of the unproductive behaviors I have. Related to sex it's really impossible for me to stop or forget these fantasies, because I have had relations with well over 425 woman since I was 16, and I'm 75 now. I don't want to eliminate those beautiful memories, However, I have learned to change my focus from that habit to something else. So, no I don't think fantasies are something to be fought. They are to be loved and dealt with reasonably. And so it goes...
     
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  9. Thanks for your response! Quite honestly, I'm not exactly sure on how we differ because I generally agree with what you say. I would never advocate fighting fantasy in the sense of trying to stop it, and I especially do not agree with judging oneself because a fantasy or thought entered the mind. But perhaps some clarifications.

    I suppose if I were to disagree it would be surrounding what you mean when you say you "embrace my fantasies." If you mean you actively invite them into your life and freely give yourself permission to indulge, then yes, I disagree. For the addict, and in my extensive experience as an addict, fantasy is a gateway drug to porn use. That's not to say that fantasizing guarantees a reset, but it surely doesn't help with sobriety in much the same way hanging out in a bar wouldn't help a recovering alcoholic. We can't stop or control the thoughts and fantasies that come into our minds, but we can choose how to respond to them, and that's at the core of each of the techniques in my original post.

    So I'll have a fantasy enter my mind. I can choose to indulge in it, allowing it to remain. I can dive deeper and freely allow it to focus my attention. I can become aroused by it and swim in the pleasure, experiencing the exhilaration of flooding my mind with dopamine, satisfying my reward centers. To me, that's what embracing fantasy consists of. I tried this, and it kept me stuck in my addiction cycle. I could not fantasize like this and remain sober. The two are linked.

    I've managed to have an extended period of sobriety as of this post. I've also fantasized in the last 108 days. On a couple of occasions, I did exactly what I wrote above. I haven't reset, so it's possible to reach a point where the tendency to reset is not as powerful as it is in the initial stages of withdrawal. It's different for everyone. However, if I return to my habit of fantasy and do it on a regular basis, a reset is right around the corner. And I would dare say a relapse is inevitable because by regularly indulging in fantasy, I'm not focused on recovery and finding healthier habits and mechanisms to keep me from escaping (which is what fantasy helps with so very well) whatever it is I'm escaping from.

    Is all fantasy bad? No. Is all sexual fantasy bad? Of course not. Is reminiscing and fantasizing about the past wrong? It depends. Regardless of how one answers those questions, here's what I would say to the sex addict: Is all fantasy bad? No, but I would hazard a guess that fantasy is a strong trigger that is leading you to your compulsions, and if that's the case it's something you can't ignore. Is all sexual fantasy bad? When recovering and attempting to stay sober while developing healthy habits to fill the void that stopping compulsions leaves, I would say yes. Is reminiscing and fantasizing about the past wrong? In recovery, we need to focus on changing the things we can change. Controlling the things we can control, and accepting the things we cannot. The past is something we cannot change. Often, the past is the exact thing addicts are attempting to escape from. Even dwelling in the past is indicative of wanting to impossibly change or control something, and that isn't healthy for the recovering addict.

    I appreciate the feedback and I'm curious if you have further thoughts. I can say that in the time since I wrote my original post, I've learned that self-forgiveness and self-compassion are key to recovery. That hasn't prompted me to change any of the techniques I listed, but it does change the way I view fantasy when it comes into my mind and even when I find myself indulging. It doesn't mean I've failed or I'm heading towards a relapse, but it is something I will always pay careful attention to and attempt to mindfully respond to something that I know isn't good for my recovery.
     
  10. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    Wry well written, and I would agree with you on this.
     
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  11. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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  12. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    My husband has also found that if he doesn’t nip his fantasy in the bud it leads him down the wrong path.
     
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  13. Just rediscovered this thread.

    I've thought a lot about fantasies recently as I've been plagued with them over the last six months.

    I think I understand fantasy better now. I relate the need to fantasise to the need I have to MO. it's a compulsion. It comes on when I feel bad about something and I want to feel better.

    If I'm upset, worried, afraid, anxious, angry etc, I can make myself feel better by masturbating. If masturbating is off limits, then fantasizing can fill that gap.

    I think even non-sexual fantasizing can be evaluated in a similar way. I notice that at times when things are going well in my life, I daydream less. But when I'm feeling pressured or unfulfilled, I can make myself feel better by running favourite daydreams through my head. One of my favourites is about winning the lottery, being able to pay off my debts, quit my job, give people gifts, do something philanthropic etc. etc..

    So I've come to think all fantasy is in some way an effort to avoid current worries and make myself feel better.

    So instead of thinking of fantasising as an action, I have been trying to think of it as a symptom: I'm fantasizing, therefore something must be troubling me. If I can identify what is causing me to feel troubled, I can take some genuine action to do something about it.

    I'm beginning to see that my way of being is split into two behaviours: either I get on with life, take action, confront hurdles, live by my word, and get pleasure from completing the creative projects I come up with - or I hide from challenges, prevaricate, avoid conflict, become unreliable and make myself happy through fantasy and MO.

    Most of my life is between these two extremes. I'm trying actively to create the positive extreme as a matter of course.
     
  14. Tom_Corsi

    Tom_Corsi Fapstronaut

    This describes almost exactly how I feel/think about fantasy as well ... but I have yet to really try the suggestion posted here of actively thinking of it as a symptom. Now I know one of my next tasks!

    Excellent post!
     
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  15. Thanks, @Tom_Corsi !

    Some of this is still theoretical, but I am also going to put more effort into it as a New Year resolution!
     
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  16. This is an amazing and accurate analysis. I've been doing fairly well with responding to my sexual fantasies to the point that they no longer plague me as much as they used to. The non-sexual fantasies are a different story. They used to be dangerous in that every single one would lead me to a sexual scenario, and many times they still do, but I've been thinking more and more what it is I'm escaping from? What am I not content with? Where is my focus? When I seriously answer those questions, I get the exact same answers I get when I'm fantasizing to sex. I'm not saying all fantasy is bad or something to be avoided (an impossibility), but I do advocate for engaging our wise minds. Analyzing what are the deeper issues involved. Sometimes there aren't any that are serious - most of the time there are.
    Incredible. Very well put. Hats off to you sir!
     
  17. Thanks! It's still an ideal and a work in progress. But I'm planning to make 2020 the year to be in action, in Life, Work and Relationships - the idea is that it's more effective and fulfilling to be active in the real world than in the world of my head.

    I'll post more on my own thread, but much of the credit for this thinking goes to my participation in Landmark Forum and other courses.
     
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  18. I am loving this thread!
    Fantasy has been my #1 problem more than porn, tied into a fetish but pornography and sexual imagery has been the fuel for it.

    I call fantasy porn's 'back up drives' - you're still playing 'porn' in your head - and in a sense its a low (or sometimes high) level of edging/p-subbing...

    I first like to make the distinction between healthy 'fantasy' which is visualization:

    For example, if you are having problems with arguing with your wife, you might walk through a scenario of when conflict arises and rehearsing a different response and imagining a different outcome...

    This is what top athletes and performers do all the time. its mapping out the future.. its not just relationship based - if you're trying to decide where to go on your next vacation, you think about some places you want to go.. maybe keeping that vision in your head helps you when you're working out because the next trip involves being in shape.

    after doing this sort of visualization you're motivated and feel recharged...

    the fantasy that hurts us is the 'escape' sexual fantasy:
    a. we feel like crap after...but here is something else interesting - after i 'indulge' the need for self care, spirituality and a host of another unmet non sexual needs is very strong.
    b. it doesn't help with current living - sometimes its such an escape that its an opposite life (if you have a lot of responsibility you imagine yourself in submissive sex for example)
    c. it becomes so bad that we start to avoid thinking about real life and real life gets worse because you're not dealing with it.

    After facing this issue with myself, I thoroughly believe that:
    • fantasies, like dreams are symbolic, and not meant to be acted on in real life - the problem is when we think they do. There is a meaning for our fantasies but like dreams this can be hard to sort out. But if we do we can address the issue in a healthy manner.
    • fantasies are not sex or related to sex. Sex is between two people, sexual fantasy is an attempt self stimulate sexual organs without a partner's touch, feel sight and smell - all the senses are missing so you have to activate something in the mind - its often panic, taboo breaking or anxiety that helps build excitement.
    I know what the problem is, but honestly i haven't been very good at tackling it, it's the main thing that has inhibited real healing.
     
  19. A couple of things that might help sort out fantasy:

    • a. dream (as in the dreams you have when you sleep) interpretation. Dreams are good because the mind speaks in in symbols and is 'amoral' you might find yourself having incestual sex for example - and the dream interpretation sites will have examples that may provide clues to your sexual fantasies - which might be your brain trying to 'speak' or comfort you symbolically, not literally.
    • b. myth analysis - again the symbolic archetypes might provide some clues into our fantasies.

    most of all though it is important to continually re-enforce to yourself that fantasies are SYMBOLIC they do not represent YOU or how you should act in the world...
     
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  20. Invictvs

    Invictvs Fapstronaut

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    I don't know how I managed to do it, but my first round of quitting PMO this was a big issue. I trained myself to just say no.. literally out loud if I was alone and in my head if others were around. It was hell for a couple of weeks but it got much much easier as time when on. If I caught my mind working up a sexual fantasy, I'd just say no no no no no no....until it went away. I might have looked crazy, but it worked eventually.
     

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