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PA and Marriage

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by Angelos, May 15, 2018.

  1. Angelos

    Angelos Fapstronaut

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    I got my inspiration for this post on another thread.

    Firstly, I'd like to give my viewpoint, porn is bad, not because it's some kind of a gateway drug, but because if seen too many times it can corrode the mind, and if you do it too often it can lead to other things, but in many cases it doesn't.

    I'd like you all to think of the first time you masturbated. From this moment on something changed, you knew you'd never be the same again. You opened the Pandora box and you now suffer extensively in not doing it.

    Think back to when you first saw your first pornographic pictures, then those movies? Again, another Pandora box of sin is opened up and to close it is incredibly difficult.

    .... then think of the first time you had sex? Same applies, sin is very difficult to reverse and the deeper you go in sin the harder it is to reverse it.

    In another post somebody stated that watching porn is cheating. I must say as bad as porn is isn't not exactly cheating.

    Cheating involves actively finding another person in real life and engaging in a relationship emotionally or physically, where more than one party is aware of the actions.

    The discussion further evolved to state that for a male to have an O is cheating to their partner. I very much doubt this. An O is a human right, it's nature!

    Nobody can exclusively have rights or ownership of YOUR O. It's understandable that if one had a sudden urge to prod his wife/woman for assistance, or at least you would hope this to be the case.

    Another thing I don't understand is how people here demonize pornography to the level they do, sure it's wrong, but not as bad as people think.

    Consider this, say a man has a certain fetish (not that I do), but rather than bothering his lovely wife with this perversion he watches this online. His wife now having found out that he watches porn, believes that he doesn't love her, where in reality it's because he did love her than he didn't want her to get involved with his personal demons.

    Now consider, his wife never has sex with the guy. One week passes, one month pass, two months etc. The guy then asks for assistance, 'Hi there, wanna have fun?', she responds 'Nah, I am tired'. Whenever he tries she knocks him down. At some stage this fellow will either do one of three things, rape her, watch porn, or cheat on her. He decides to watch porn, and now she says he doesn't love her.

    In society porn is wrong, but since every person has had that Pandora box opened, we can all revert to it when we've become accustomed to sex and had it withdrawn.

    Another thing which bothered me is this exclusivity to an O. To give this power away to a single human being and for them to choose when you should ejaculate isn't something that sits well with me. In an ideal world we would be machines with an on and off button, but the reality is in our biology, which doesn't work like a light switch.

    A man loves his woman, he chooses to have sex with her because he loves her and finds it better than porn. This is how you'd hope it would end, but not all cases are like this.

    How about if she doesn't want to have sex with him? Who's to say she isn't getting it from a third party, or have another person in mind.

    Their chosen partner might have less appetite for sex, whereas they might be more hungry for it. This mismatch in expectation to delivery can truly make things difficult and if not met will lead to divorces. So what should one do if they find themselves in a relationship where their partner has no appetite for sex?

    There was a study in how legalized prostitution in countries reduced the rate of rapes.

    I strongly believe that pornography does reduce the rate of divorces as men satisfy themselves outside their marriages which helps them stay together with a woman who may have less libido.

    Culturally where I am from, it was said that a woman should always respond positively to their husband who wishes to have sex with her, and declining him sex without improvising should lead to a separation.

    I don't personally believe this. If she isn't well or feels very tired, who's to say she is forced to undergo sex. If I am that desperate I can easily watch porn to satisfy myself until she is better.

    Personally I wouldn't just go on porn, but if it persisted I would have to tell her that I would need to watch porn, if she didn't agree then I would have to let her go. Men do have urges and to assume that both parties are faithful and celebrate to each other is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard, if she isn't getting it from you she'd be getting it somewhere else, same goes with him.

    This post isn't intended to offend, but purely to put my viewpoint on things.

    I feel this post is more to understand how marriages work than anything else. My brother speaks of marriages and he confirms many of the things you guys speak of.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  2. TryingHard2Change

    TryingHard2Change Distinguished Fapstronaut

  3. When it has the ability to destroy your self-esteem, happiness, relationships, and anything else that is important to you, it is that bad in many cases.

    He may love her, but he certainly doesn't respect her in this situation. It's called selfishness.

    I would have to disagree with this because I believe P actually causes many divorces.

    There are MANY SO's who aren't getting it from their husbands because their husband chose P over them, over and over again. And, to say that means the wife is getting it from somewhere else is just wrong. Plenty of us have remained faithful to a husband who cheated on us by choosing to get their sexual needs met from other people, whether it's P, chat rooms, or any other place outside their marriage.
     
    xylton, K423, BetrayedMermaid and 4 others like this.
  4. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    Whoa. I do not have the energy for this. I defer to those that do and will patiently try to explain things more eloquently than I ever could.
     
  5. Angelos,

    Since you are not in a relationship and claim to never want to be, why do you keep posting under the rebooting in a relationship forum? Please take this discussion to another forum, like Rebooting, Porn Addiction Recovery, or Off-Topic. The people in this forum aren't here to discuss theory first and foremost, they are real people trying to recover from real addiction and real trauma.

    On the topic at hand, I respectfully decline to engage. This will be my last post to this or any other related thread.

    Peace,
    -Quinn
     
  6. Angelos

    Angelos Fapstronaut

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    If this is the case, then something is seriously wrong somewhere in the relationship. For me this would be like choosing to eat a meal made with frozen chicken than fresh chicken. Fresh chicken should win hands down and if it's not then something is wrong somewhere.

    Obviously, to start engaging in chat rooms and other things is wrong, particularly if one is married.

    I think though it's about being honest and open. I guess at this stage I am only speaking on theories and understanding principles more than anything else.

    I don't know how to move a thread and I am not deleting it at this stage, maybe an admin can move it.

    I have never been in a relationship, I have Aspergers, and it would be right to assume I've never had sex, but again, at my age now, I don't really want to. I think the older you get the more you don't want to and if it means you have to put up with complex situations, then you can do without. In either case, these topics here intrigue me and I want to learn.

    I can see this, if for example, he never touches her because he is on the P, yes this would definitely happen, or if he gains an acquired taste and as a result is no longer interest in his wife, sure.

    In short porn is bad because it can be used to replace your wife with it. I appreciate this. I guess neither a man or women knows really what they get into when they get married and it's really good to know these principles beforehand.
     
  7. Tan3110

    Tan3110 Fapstronaut

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    How can you even comment on if it's cheating or how it truthfully feels you have never has sex or been where we all are. And you'll find that pretty much most partners arent against their partners having an orgasm or masterbation they are against the use of porn or other outlets and people to get their jollies as it caused alot of different problems some are serious like PIED or abusive behaviour or infidelity.or even things like emotional disconnection.

    You should keep your opinions to yourself specially if you have no experience knowledge on the matters. I think you vented to create this debate to shit stirr and justify the use of masturbation and porn use maybe as a reason to "relapse or just to use" or make yourself feel less guilt and shame for wanting it so much

    Please stop posting in this forum
     
    BetrayedMermaid likes this.
  8. Penelope

    Penelope Fapstronaut

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  9. Tan3110

    Tan3110 Fapstronaut

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  10. Angelos

    Angelos Fapstronaut

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    You don't need to put your hand in the fire to know you'd get burned. What I am trying to say you don't actually need to have been in a relationship to connect the dots, but obviously it would help. We're all on our own voyage to self discovery here, and my discovery is knowledge.

    I was encouraged to post and to stick around so this is what I am doing. I apologize if this has offended you, but I have not gotten into a personal debate, but even if I did, debates are healthy and often allow both parties to learn something new.

    You're completely wrong here.

    Unless my comments are abusive, or directly offensive, then you cannot stop me posting here. If you don't wish to read my comments then you should not comment on the post.

    Brillant article, I'd give it a read today and see what it's all about.

    PS: If you find this post offensive please do not comment here. This isn't about offending anybody. I know you all have your own personal struggles and it's very admirable. It's about unveiling the truth and understand the truth P can do, appreciating that some may never experience this harm.
     
  11. TryingToHeal

    TryingToHeal Fapstronaut

    Where is @GG2002 ? This thread would be perfect for her.
     
  12. Angelos

    Angelos Fapstronaut

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    Debates are more than welcome. :) It's all about learning.
     
  13. I think they may be. If:

    - your are asked to leave and post in another forum and refuse. Refusing to stop talking is a sign of abuse.
    - saying you want to "learn" when you seem to want to argue instead is gas-lighting.

    The people here including me have very very finely tuned bs meters. They are also all going through trauma, both the PAs and SOs. Picking on trauma victims to argue the role of culture in a marriage and argue that porn is not harmful is abusive. In this forum, it is stipulated that porn is bad for a marriage and an individual. Square one debates are hurtful to those trying to recover. Please take this to another forum. If you continue to refuse to do that, we may start reporting you for harassment.

    Peace,
    -Quinn
     
  14. TryingToHeal

    TryingToHeal Fapstronaut

    P is a factor in 56% of divorces.
    "In a 2004 testimony before the United States Senate, Dr. Jill Manning shared some interesting data regarding pornography and relationships. In her research she found that 56 percent of divorce cases involved one party having an obsessive interest in pornographic websites.1 Another source, the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, polled 350 divorce attorneys in 2003 where two thirds of them reported that the Internet played a significant role in the divorces, with excessive interest in online porn contributing to more than half such cases.

    If these numbers are accurate, here's a very sobering statistic. Every year for the past decade there have been roughly 1 million divorces in the United States. If half of the people divorcing claim pornography as the culprit, that means there are 500,000 marriages annually that are failing due to pornography."
    This is from: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...n-really-destroying-500000-marriages-annually

    So, that is 2004. I would imagine the number from that would only increase with everyone now having access to porn via phones all the time.
     
  15. Just to clarify...he said on the previous thread that he had Aspergers, but then he was misquoted by someone else saying he had Autism.
     
  16. I apologize that I missed that, but he did also say in the previous thread that he had Aspergers.

     
  17. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

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    Ok... I will do my best to be as civil as possible, but after my 8 hour training yesterday on men, violence towards women, and porn, I may come off quite testy....


    Note: Caps do not inticate anger, but are capped to be obvious, pay attention to, etc.

    That is YOUR definition. EVERYONE has their OWN definintion, that MUST be respected. If you view cheating as only physical, that is YOUR opinion. If you are with someone who thinks of cheating in the GREY, NOT BLACK AND WHITE, then you DEFER TO THEM. For instance, my husband is uncomfortable with one of my guy friends because of the Emotional Connection I have to him. So, I know there is nothing to really worry about, but that does NOT MEAN I ignore his feelings or wishes. I now talk to that male friend once a month, and if more, it's business related because he is working for me on a project. I tell my husband every time I have contact with this friend, to ease HIS worries. I am being Respectful of His Definition of Cheating.

    Look up Gonzo porn, and come back and talk to me. I sat through a 2 hour documentary yesterday on mens violence and violence towards women. The porn clips of gonzo porn.... (no body parts just the faces of the women) the faces of those women.... they were being TORTURED, RAPED, HURT, ABUSED. Porn is bad. There are some (Rare) VANILLA porn... but WE as viewers DON'T 100% know whether the actors/actresses HAVE CONSENTED (i.e. consentual sex). There are stories of porn actresses saying they had GUNS TO THEIR HEADS IF THEY DIDN'T DO AS THE DIRECTOR SAID. Their life was threatened if they didn't have sex, so what did they do? They had sex *were raped*. And guys get off to so many rapes.... they don't even know... it's sick.

    Mismatch in sex drive CAN BE WORKED THROUGH. Go get Hot Monogamy, read the chapter on mismatched drives. I am a high sex drived girl, my husband is not high sex drived. I have not gone to porn, or any other source for sex. I love my husband and want him only. Just because he is tired and not in the mood does not give me the right to hurt him (through visual *porn*, emotional, physical, mental *imagining some other guy* cheating).

    THERE IS NEVER a reason anyone should be raped. Refusal of sex, does not mean a man or woman can just rape them, watch porn and cheat. That shows NO respect for the spouse. It shows that the BETRAYER does not give one flying fuck about their partner. Sorry for the anger.

    Again, read Hot Monogamy.

    Divorce because of porn is higher than 50%.... Porn causes so many divorces.... porn does not have a place in a marriage unless both parties consent to that.

    That is just wrong. I know you said you don't agree with that, which is great. But that is just wrong it's rape.



    In a marriage, two partners are EQUAL. Each partner has a right to decide their own definitions, boundaries, safety, and the party that has a lesser definition defers to the partner who has more definition (go back to my example about my husband and my guy friend). In marriages, sex is not about O (or shouldn't only be about O). Sex is to build intimacy. Intimacy is emotional, physical, verbal, psychological, spiritual, etc. There are many ways to build intimacy. Sex.... both men and women WANT sex. Just because one of the spouses wants more sex than the other does not mean that the higher drive person gets to discard their vows. It means, the higher drive person COMMUNICATES HONESTLY with the lower drive. I.e. "Hey sweetie, I've noticed you haven't been in the mood lately, is there any particular reason? Are you stressed? If so, is there any way I can help you? Is there something missing in our sex life that you would like to incorporate to make sex more of a desire for you?" etc.
     
    hope4healing, TryingToHeal and Numb like this.
  18. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    @hope4healing & @GhostWriter

    Asperger's is on the spectrum of autism so whether he said one or both, both are right. If he has Asperger's, then he has high functioning autism.
     
    Jennica, Angelos and hope4healing like this.
  19. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I’m here and yes this is a lot to unpack. I understand that the OP is on the autism spectrum but in reading the post it sounds to me like many other pmo addicts and so I think I will respond the same as I would to anyone else.

    First, the op seems to be straddling two different ideas one is yes porn is bad and the other but men have to watch it they have no choice, which is it?

    Second nobody is denying anyone the right to self pleasure. Self pleasure to me is fine and I actually also think so is porn I don’t see it as bad for all. Both of these are bad if you become addicted. If you choose them over sex with a real live partner or if you can’t perform with a real life partner because of pmo but can’t or won’t stop. It’s like an alcoholic versus someone who has a drink now and again. Non pmo addicts don’t have to watch porn. It does not matter if they have already seen it or not I’ve seen porn and I don’t have to watch it just like I’ve drank alcohol and I don’t have to drink it. It’s called self control and if you lack it then you are likely addicted.

    Third you alone don’t define what cheating is in a relationship. Your partner defines what he or she feels is cheating . It’s not done by consensus or what most other people think. It does not matter what anyone else thinks but your partner. The same goes with porn use or fetishes. If your partner has an issue with porn use or fetishes then it is wrong for you to stay in the relationship and use porn to play out fetishes. No it does not make it okay to do it and lie about it. It’s really all about honesty. So when you first start dating be honest about your porn use and fetishes and if she objects move on. Do not continue and lie to her.

    Fourth and this one is really important lies only protect one person from pain and that’s the liar. No you are not protecting your partner from pain by engaging in your fetishes and lying to her. You are protecting yourself and casuing her more pain.

    Fifth your partner is not there for your sole sexual pleasure. This is a very common mistake that addicts make they attempt to replace and replicate pmo with a partner. So the “ I have needs and she turned me down “ is very commonly used as an excuse to pmo. Sex had intimacy are totally different than pmo and an addict needs to understand and change that mindset in order to have any chance in having a loving relationship. As with most pmo addicts you are overly focused on sex and your own sexual pleasure. I see no mention of your desire to pleasure a woman or fulfill her emotionally we all.

    Sixth yes people have different sex drives but with pmo addicts they will turn down sex with a partner in favor of porn because your partner will never be able really compete with porn. Could you compete with a different dude everyday that looks like the rock or a movie star? Nope. And pmo addicyecor even just men woo watch a lot of porn are almost always horrible lovers they think they are awesome in bed because they replicate what they see in porn but they are selfish and there is no intimacy. They basically masturbate to their partner. I know I’ve been there it’s disgusting. So women stop wanting to have sex with men. Porn use makes her turn you down more!

    Seventh with maturity comes self control. We realize if we eat that chocolate cake we love everyday we gain a ton of weight and after awhile we want it everyday and it does not taste as good as it used to so we look for other types of cake and cookies and candy. But if we wait and eat it say once a month it’s so much better. It’s like sex with a partner versus pmo and it’s about delayed gratification and self control. If you don’t have it then you could be an addict and if you are a pmo addict you can never watch porn again. That one is also really tough for guys. Never ever ever again. Porn is poison to you just like alcohol is to alcoholics.

    Eighth a relationship built on lies will always fail. Maybe not today maybe not next year but eventually it will. You cannot lie to a partner about who you are and that’s also about your sexuality what you like in bed.

    And finally I read low self esteem here. Many pmo addicts turn to pmo due to low self esteem and others develop it because of it. There is a woman that will love you for you so please give these ladies a chance. Don’t hide in shame share yourself fully with another human being instead of a screen. I know screens don’t judge you, they don’t have feelings or opinions or wants and needs of their own. They don’t turn you down they don’t cheat, they are always ready to go in bed and there for your pleasure. Pmo addiction is at its core an intimacy disorder and what I just said above here is why. If you are an addict get help. Then once you are a year in recovery get out there and date. Be honest about your recovery and your past let that person see the real you, the good the bad and the ugly. That’s what love is about and that’s how it grows. And if you are dating or married to someone who never wants to have sex with you and you have truly evaluated what you can do to fix it then say “ I am not happy with us having sex once a year or ever and if nothing changes I am going to leave” and if nothing changes LEAVE, man or woman, husband wife fiancée it does not matter. Unless there is a medical condition preventing sex them you have every right to leave a sexless relationship. But what you don’t have a right to do is lie and pmo. Express how you feel. Do not be passive aggressive and address the issues. Many bad sex lives come from bad communication nothing more. You have the right to express how you feel and be heard. But have realistic expectations. Don’t say we only have sex once a week and that’s never having sex. Compromise. Have sex before you get married and whatever amount of sex you have while dating cut that at least in half and that’s what you will have when married. Don’t think it will change or get better it won’t. Marry someone with whom you are sexually compatible and can be sexually open with. Men who are not pmo addicts tend to openly discuss their porn use with partners. They don’t feel ashamed when ask t and don’t lie. That’s the biggest difference with my ex and other men I have dated. He felt shame over his sexuality and porn use.

    I hope this helps.
     
  20. Angelos

    Angelos Fapstronaut

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    Possibly if the forum owner asked you to do this, but if a single forum member did then this does not constitute as abuse. Fortunately others are responding in a more positive manner to yourself.

    I want to understand what possibly trauma porn can cause. As I said, to me this is completely foreign.

    No harassment was intended, I am unsure if the admins would want to stop the learning of a new member on the basis of your version of harassment.

    I have a completely different understanding on divorce rates.

    I always felt the reason divorce rates are so high are due to the fact that people engage in sex with many people before eventually settling down. Since the pandora box of sin is opened, if they are unhappy with their spouse, they would just sleep with somebody else. Whereas if you only ever have sex with 1 person in your life, the married person is all you know, so you remain with them for thick or thin, if this makes sense, whether happy or otherwise.

    This makes sense, but if 50% of divorces are due to pornography, then this means that only 30% of people divorce because of pornography. It would be safe to assume that 90% of males watch pornography. I strongly feel that divorce rates are linked to the number of sex partners you have, rather than divorce rates.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ual-partners-ve-determine-likely-DIVORCE.html

    I am just justifying porn, but again, porn would not equal separation, it may equal unhappiness to the wife, but if she's only ever had sex with one man and only knows of one man she will likely remain in this marriage.

    I am pretty accustomed to people giving me grief because of my autism. They somehow get angry for absolutely no reason. Whoever said it never hurts to ask is probably the stupidest person alive, you don't need to look to far to see how silly this statement is.

    It must seam logical for me to accept those things, otherwise I can never truly accept them.

    It's bad, and no men do not have to watch porn, but they must satisfy themselves if their spouse doesn't, for sure. If they do happen to watch porn it's definitely not the end of the world, and if anything they should say it to them. I definitely would, but this is just how I am.

    I am not big on friends to be truthful. Although if I ever did get married, which I probably won't, I wouldn't have any friends of the opposite sex mainly because I would have no interest in them. However, if my hypothetical wife had male friends, I wouldn't be too happy myself so I can understand your husband completely. Worse yet, if my wife was to kiss and hug other men, I'd probably start shouting. She may even feel sorry for me because she'd understand that the reason I shout isn't to get rid of her but because I truly want her. Something you're missing is that Autistic people get attached to others, and once they are attached they cannot do without them. At first however, they keep away and repel people, so loosing somebody would be mentally traumatic for us.

    I've just lost my no-porn streak. :( We assume those actresses consented and got paid for their work. If they didn't, we can't be sure. I am sure some didn't get paid and it was rape.

    Some porn genres are very sick indeed. Sickening to the core. So many different things out there, and so many variations and sub-categories of porn which push the boundaries of what is acceptable.

    I am sure your husband won't leave you to those devices. If the spouse cares he can find a way to have common ground, but some spouses aren't as forthcoming, and simply dismiss it.

    Only recently has raping your spouse been made illegal. Previously it was impossible to rape your wife. The courts wouldn't acknowledge rape. This sounds crazy, as rape is having sex to somebody who doesn't want it, regardless.

    "By 1986, in Europe, there was international pressure to criminalize marital rape: the European Parliament's Resolution on Violence Against Women of 1986 called for its criminalization.[30] This was reiterated by the Recommendation Rec(2002)5 of the Committee of Ministers to member states on the protection of women against violence.[31] (see para 35) This recommendation provided detailed guidelines on how legislation regarding domestic violence, rape, and other forms of violence against women should operate."

    Different, not equal. A man and a woman are not the same, in the same sense as 2 gay men are not the same with one another.

    You're more than welcome to talk about me to whoever you wish, and feel free to respond back to me once you've found something new out. I am always up for learning.


    To higlight for all.

    I have Aspergers, this isn't bad, it means we see things very literal. No grey lines, either black or white. We have virtually no empathy, we avoid eye contact, hate being touched or stroked. Prefer our own company, but don't mind the company of others, as long as we trust them, which can only be built with time. It's not as bad as it seams, I do not have a therapist or undergo any medication. I just live everyday and do what I do. I have a pretty good life, just tired all the time because my job is physically and mentally exhausting.

    One last thing, we cannot lie, not even to our partner, or if you had a gun to our head. It's impossible for me to lie, which can cause problems because if a fat woman asks me if she is fat, my response would be 'yes'. If she asked for an apology, I would proceed to compare her with women her age and start quoting weight figures proving that she is indeed overweight for her age. If she called me names following this, I wouldn't be offended or care.


    It's a screen though. I would definitely prefer the real deal to be honest.

    I can't lie.

    Culturally this is impossible. Our dates are arranged through family and friends. Since I've admited I have autism to you, my family think I am very wierd, which means they will not introduce me to anybody, burning my bridges completely. There isn't much I can do about this, nor do I care. I've learned to accept this and move on. Sometimes they mention women to me, but considering their past history I always know this is just hocus pocus.

    I don't know, I was thinking every day, but if she wants once a week, then I would prod her for more. Although I do like your statement on having said outside marriage as you'd then be fully geared to what married life will be like. I completely agree with your statement that things inside marriage don't get better. I hear of many cases where partners have children to mend their relationship, which is complete madness.

    I am the type of guy who doesn't ask for things from others, so I wouldn't ask for sex, in any cases. If she didn't allow me to have sex with her then we'd never have it at all. Sounds bad, but this is how I am.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018

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