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Here we go again SOs, should the addict disclose his addiction or hide it?

Discussion in 'Partner Support' started by GG2002, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    Don’t you think it would just be much easier to tell the truth all of the time? Which date or how soon or when do you disclose? Before you have sexual contact and/or when you see things are getting serious. To me that’s pretty clear cut. If you went out with a group no I would not consider that a date. I don’t get how addicts on here comment on threads, my threads asking questions and then when I answer them say “oh no you are wrong” or you are giving me unsolicited advice, then don’t ask or comment? I mean it seems like all these men on here are experts on women, so why do they need NoFap? Why ask a woman if you already know? To me it is very simple just tell the truth. I on’t that that is overly simplistic, presumptuous or patronizing. But I get that you do not like what I am saying so I will stop responding or reading your messages. Good luck to you.
     
  2. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I have dated many of these men myself that she describes, so yes they are out there. But maybe you can tell me instead what my actual dating experience is? Since you know better than I. I’m onto you dude, and so are several others on this thread. Stop just stop.
     
  3. Jennica

    Jennica Fapstronaut

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    Empathy,compassion and vulnerability is an attractive strong man. A man that can handle his emotions and life. That is a real alpha in my mind otherwise its just shallow and faulse bravado. My husband lost who he was with his PA and became arrogant, selfish and shallow. He is quite intellectually strong but had also behaved like high schooler.
    No thank you, I'm an emotional mature woman who wants an emotional mature man to share my life with with. Thankfully he is letting go of all the fake crap and has become even more vulnerable.
    He's Showing empathy and compassion again. I wouldn't have stayed with him otherwise.

    Withholding the truth about yourself to someone who you may love and care for is manipulation and selfish. I can respect honestey and vulnerability not a selfish, egotistical, emotionally absent fake alpha dude. the world is full enough of men like that, I don't need or want one in my life. I fell in love with him because wasn't "that guy" and I'm falling for him all over again because stopped being that guy from his PA.
     
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  4. Ongoingsupport

    Ongoingsupport Fapstronaut

    The point about I statements and crosstalk are standards in real life face to face recovery (and other) meetings, you can easily look that up. Not all of us are just here taking words at face value, its simply exasperating for me to have my words repeatedly misinterpreted and the other party doesn't so much as check, even after the misunderatanding is pointed out when it's areply to a specific point of TWO sentences. I would prefer people read the whole thing and comprehend the whole thing, if it's too long nobody is obligated to read it.

    There is a difference between dishonesty and misunderstanding. And just like Im only one guy and not the whole group of guys you're pointing to, you're one woman in one conversation here, it has nothing to do with whether I am open to women's opinion as a whole. I despise such pigeonholing and generalizations.
     
  5. you are onto me ?? who do you think i am , some ukranian spy ?? your way of talking is ridiculous.
    if you can't read someone else's opinion without getting extremely bitter and vicious, you should quit this community.
    learn to attack the argument, not the person.
    if you have dated such men, good for you. i still doubt it.
    maybe there is a generation divide. but the fact remains i am not that kind of guy nor do i know anyone who is. and from what i have observed women want a strong, self assured guy. even though they might say they preffer the sensitive kind.
    this is my opinion ( and of many men i know) and i stand by it.
     
  6. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    Reading some of these posts I have come to the understanding that many of the addicts on NoFap, know everything there is about women, how they think, how they feel, what they say. They know what they really want. They know about how women will react to honesty or dishonesty. They know more about recovery than addicts that have been in recovery for years when they have been clean for a day, so as I say carry on. Why are you even here? I mean you should all be dripping in women, with your confidence, your inside intel, or written a best selling novel by now, the ways of women or something. But don’t ask. Don’t ask someone what they think or feel, and then when they tell you say “no that’s not really how you feel, I know better.” It’s fine to say I disagree with you, or I don’t like that opinion. You are not in my shoes, and while certainly as SOs we don’t all agree on everything, but we do agree on many things, and when addicts ask and we all respond in one voice with one answer, and then the addict says “no that’s not really true I know the facts I know how it is,” huh? Again why did you ask?
     
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  7. Reading some of these posts on this forum i have come to the understanding that some people just don't know how to not attack a person but instead attack his argument. these some people are also under the illusion that just because a man is moderately addicted to pornography, he must be totally awkward with women and knows nothing about them. that i must assure them is not the case. yes porn is a hinderance and causes social anxiety but some people can be charming inspite of it ( although they would be even better after quitting ).
    and some female members have the unshakeable belief that they know everything there is to know about men while they charge with cutlasses and bayonets towards any man who says he knows about a single particular trait of otherwise extremely complex psyche of women.
    these people need to be more open minded and like i said before, should learn to attack the argument instead of the person.
     
  8. Hello Raymond, good to see you again. How are you settling in?

    Your argument is this...
    I see no facts quoted, no studies mentioned. In fact, your first eight words are...

    "i dont think that women like vulnerable men."

    If an argument starts quoting opinions as facts... well, what more needs to be said?

    You make a good point here - "maybe there is a generation divide." Or cultural one. There could be any number of reasons why people don't fit the theory or pre-conceived idea that you or I may have. Allow for them in your argument.

    OK. That's your opinion, and I believe you have a right to say it. But that also means others have the right to disagree. And your argument is based on personal observation.

    For the record, I admitted to my wife that I am a PA. I am truly sorry for it and am trying to repair the damage. My wife is working out her own feelings at the moment, as she needs to. But one of the reasons she doesn't want to let me go is, and I quote her, "now you're giving up the porn, you've become such a vulnerable creature, and I'm seeing a whole new side to you I didn't see before - I love you even more because of that. "

    Her exact words. I can ask her to corroborate it, if you like.

    Maybe it is just a generational thing, a cultural thing. Or maybe I'm the luckiest guy in the world. Either way... now you've met someone whose wife didn't just tell him she loved him, because of his vulnerability - but actually proved it by her actions.
     
  9. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I don’t see where anyone said that because a man is moderately addicted to porn that he must be totally awkward with women and knows nothing about them? I don’t think that. Men that are addicted to porn come from all walks of life and all levels of awkwardness and non awakened ness But I just admit I’m not sure what moderately addicted means? I thought either you were addicted or not? I also don’t think anyone said you know nothing about women. What I took issue with was women on here telling you what they think and feel and you saying no that’s not how you feel. As strong as your knowledge may be of women you are still a man and even so you can’t tell a specific person they feel or think one thing when they just told you they are not. I also don’t see any women charging at or attacking men and I certainly don’t proport to know how all men think. This thread was started because one person told me that my thoughts were not true, my opinions and thoughts. I am open minded and so I opened this thread up to SOs so other opinions could be heard and seen.

    But while I hear you opinion and respect it I don’t agree with it. And I feel like that’s the issue with you and some others. Being open minded does not mean I change my mind. It means I can respect that people see things differently than I do. And so what happens is some keep going round and round trying to convince me and get angry when I won’t agree. I’m not going to agree but that does not make me closed minded.
     
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  10. Numb

    Numb Fapstronaut

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    Nope, not even a little. I'd take someone who was vulnerable over an 'alpha man' any day. I can't stand the 'alpha dominant male' crap.
     
  11. well buddy, i am really happy for you and am very glad that your wife is so understanding of your situation.
    now for the argument that this thread is about - it is about disclosing one's porn addiction to a ' potential' significant other.
    and i dont think anyone develops the kind of loving relationship you and your wife have over a couple of dates. it takes time. telling your SO about this addiction might not be a bad idea but telling someone before beginning a relationship does not seem like a very bright plan especially since you dont even know completely what that person is like or could she use this information ( in extreme case ) against you. and anyways, a porn addiction, although somewhat crippling , is not a drug addiction. porn addicts might not be productive members of the society but they are still functioning members. it is not like the girl is in danger of being killed while the guy is on a cocaine rage. so i dont see any moral responsibility for a man to tell a girl about his porn addiction. being married or in a LTR certainly changes things. i have not been in either so can't comment about it.

    now for the vulnerability vs stregnth part, i think i was not careful enough to highlight that it applies only to intial dates and to all the superficial physical relationships that are very common in society these days. it most probably does not apply to a loving marriage or a loving LTR. but i must stress, that from what i have seen around me, although a man's wife would be understanding of his vulnerabilities , she still would like him to be a self assured guy when dealing with others. a man can't let his wife see him as just a sensitive guy with no stregnth.

    now as for the studies, i would suggest a dark triad search on google. but again this applies for initial attraction and superficial physical relationships.

    once again, i am really glad you have so much support from your wife ( and also your sister ).
    good luck with the reboot !
     
  12. Hey Raymond, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate your good wishes.

    Congratulations on 1 day clean. Stay strong.
     
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  13. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I appreciate your point of view and respect it although it’s different than mine, but I just don’t agree with you at all. Im not going to change my mind and neither are you so I will agree to disagree and wish you luck on your journey.
     
  14. True-Self

    True-Self Fapstronaut

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    I would like to try to answer this question as well.

    Background: Initially when I read this post I thought that the advice was centered around if someone you are dating asks you about porn use when should you disclose? It made sense to me that if someone asks you, than withholding information until a time when both parties are more invested is wrong.

    Now my understanding is that the advice given is for someone who has struggled with PA to disclose this information regardless of whether the SO has asked or given any indication that they want said disclosure. Initially this seemed like kind of bizarre advice because my thought was that if P is a relationship deal breaker than the onus should be on the person that has the strong feelings to bring up the subject.

    After reading through the numerous replies my thoughts have now changed. Some people have spoken of context and degree of addiction. Personally I think there is a difference between someone who decides for themselves that they want to stop using P and someone who (had to hit rock bottom to make a choice about using P, has lied about it to a past partner(s), has escalated their addiction and suffers from PIED). So to me, yes I believe there are degrees of addiction. I understand others may not feel that way. Irregardless I think is in the former PA' s interest to set the context.

    By setting the context I mean I think it wouldn't be the best idea to say something like, "now that we are getting serious I feel I should let you know I'm a PA". I think it doesn't make sense to do so because what does this mean? Addict has very negative connotations. Further someone could use P far more frequently (or recently) than a "PA" and not consider themselves a PA. I think it would be far more advisable to set the context yourself. Say something like, "now that we are getting serious I wanted to ask your thoughts on pornography". Then follow up with discussion about how you have worked hard to eliminate P from your life and you don't think that it has any benefit to the relationship. I think this approach takes some of the shame out of the disclosure but still gives each party the information needed to make a decision about the future of the relationship.
     
  15. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I started the thread and it was actually about failing to disclose not when asked. So on the original thread the person was an active addict and admitted one. He wanted to tell but others told him not to.

    I think as you said there’s a difference between someone who likes to watch porn or who is an addict even in the past tense. Yes if someone has an issue and wants to be in a no porn relationship it’s on them the say that and if you read from the ladies on here who feel that way most of them did and got lied to. So I don’t think the issue is women who want no porn in the relationship because most will tell you that.

    But addiction is an entirely different animal. Most women have never heard of porn addiction so they are not going to know to ask. Addiction unlike someone who just watches porn comes with a whole host of other issues that can seriously effect a relationship and a partner even if it’s in your past. Porn alone does not cause that. I think what you have proposed on how to approach it could work but I think it does need to be explained as an addiction. Because that’s the important piece of information. That you are or were an addict no matter if it’s porn or drugs.

    Think about the difference like this. If your partner tried cocaine or heroin a few times before and they did not disclose that to you without being asked would your feel betrayed ? no most people wouid not unless they had a strong stance on drug use and then just like the person with a strong opposition to porn they wouid bring it up. But imagine instead your potential partner is a heroin addict currently. Or has been clean for a few years. Wouid you expect them to tell you without being asked? If you found out later about the past addiction usually via a relapse wouid you feel lied to? I wouid.

    Addiction is a lifelong battle. People that develop them are often prone to other addictions and are certainly prone to relapse. Part of what I read is that many pmo addicts is they don’t think their addiction is all that serious or that it does not effect the ones they love.

    I did not ask about a porn addiction in my relationship I had no idea what that was. If a man had asked my thoughts on porn I wouid have said I have no issues with it and I did not. So wouid you then tell me about your addiction?

    To me and this is just my opinion if you own your addiction and/or sobriety you are not ashamed to openly discuss it. You own your S and if people don’t like you who needs them and there are many addicts on here who do that. Shame feeds the addiction.
     
  16. Jennica

    Jennica Fapstronaut

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    100% agree with this, this is how I see it.
    An incredibly good friend of mine is an alcoholic, he hasn’t had a drop in 25 years. He has no shame in being in “life long” recovery. He is open and honest, even about some of the horrible things he did to the people he cares many years ago, context and whom he is talking with will then decide what details to share, but he’s always honest about the fact that he went and did some horrible things when he was using. There is no shame in owning your faults, I personally think it shows great integrity and strength to be willing to admit such things.
     
  17. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    Exactly and when I read your last line it made me realize that to me it’s actually unattractive and a turn off if a guy is not willing to own and admit to his past. Who expects you to pry it out of him or ask pointed direct questions. Who wants to be in a relationship where they have to play detective? Not me. I think honestly if an addict still feels shame about being open and admitting he or she should not be dating. They need more time to heal.
     
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  18. Jennica

    Jennica Fapstronaut

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    The awesome thing is he and his wife
    (His wife knows everything about him, far more than I being good friends with him for 20 years) are the two people that know everything that I know about my hubby’s PA behaviors. They are the ones that WE can talk to individually or together about our troubles with the PA.
    The biggest reason is that we have so much respect for him as an addict/alcoholic and his wife’s understanding of for her husband, that’s more than likely because of his integrity and honesty about it.
     
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  19. True-Self

    True-Self Fapstronaut

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    Yes, I would continue to discuss how I feel about P use. In this hypothetical situation I would need more information from you. "What do you mean you have no issues with it"? "Does that mean you use it"? "How often"? [If applicable] "Why do you like using it".

    I would then discuss my feelings on P use. The information I have learned about P and the problems that it can cause to relationships. I would share why I don't use it and how my life has improved since discontinuing use of it. My ultimate stance would be that I feel that P has no benefit and I would not want it to be part of the relationship.

    I think the point of the disclosure is to share information. Saying "I'm a PA", doesn't provide much information in my opinion. The important information is: what does that mean and how does/could it impact the relationship? Both parties need to know what they are getting into. After sharing information the PA could just as likely not want to continue the relationship as the non PA partner.

    My point is I think it's easier to encourage disclosure from people if you appeal to their own self interests. Instead of framing the disclosure as, "I need to tell you... I'm a PA! - Please accept me" - frame it as a way of sharing more information so that each person is in a better position to determine if they want to move forward.
     
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  20. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I do understand your point of view, but the lawyer in me sees what you are saying as a way to avoid saying what really needs to be said. Because I am familiar with porn addiction, if we were in a situation where you were continuing to “to talk about your feelings about porn,” I would just right out ask you if you are an addict, because you speaking in those terms would make me highly suspect. Many women may not consider that and rather think that you as with most men enjoy watching porn like every other man and maybe had a prior experience where a girlfriend failed to understand. Yes my answer would be I watch porn , and mostly with my partner, I don’t have to, but I as a partner do not have a problem with you watching it so long as you are open and honest, your use in healthy and it does not effect our sex life. And that would likely be my honest answer now.

    And I do think saying you are an addict is giving the other person exactly they information that they need to have. Of course the person can follow up with others questions and then you can explain to her what that means. But your way to me sounds like beating around the bush to try not to say what really needs to be said. I understand and agree that this may help addicts disclose and if its your way or no way then your way is better, but not ideal. I would find a man that talked about this in a round about way, as evasive, wonder what else he was hiding, and the way you speak above almost seems condescending to t he person. LIke they cannot understand what it means to be an addict. They either do or they will find it out, google is amazing these days.

    As I mentioned in my prior relationships I never had an issue with porn use. THe men that I dated never did either. Never didin the sense that they felt no shame about what they did and felt no need to hide it or beat around the bush. The difference I did not see at the time about my ex was that I brought up the subject of porn and he was very uncomfortable ashamed and embarrassed, which for a man in his age range seemed odd. People that age are usually quite comfortable with this type of discsssion. And when I advise ladies about what to look for in identifying a potential porn addict i tell them this is for sure a factor. IN my mind if a PMO addict still feels shame then they significantly more likely to relapse because they have not dealt with the issue that fed their addiction to begin with. Shame.

    I do appreciate your contributions and it makes me feel positive to see some of the comments on here changed your initial thoughts process. But I think as you can see you are unlikely to win with the SOs with this approach. I agree that you are seeing this from the point of view of how the addict will be effected and we see this from the point of view of how we would be effected. And many say I do not see the addicts side in this whole situation. But to the contrary I actually do. Because an addict who cannot be 100 percent upfront is going to feel just as much if not more pain in that relationship or if it ends then he would if he would have just told in the first place. The honesty is just not about the SO, it’s also about the PA. Feeling pain is another thing addicts try try to avoid. Addicts in recovery are able to embrace the pain instead of being uncomfortable and sit with it.

    Ultimately I think this topic will be moot, maybe in 10 years time or so. Many women are becoming more and more familiar with porn addiction they have friends whose partners suffered from it, or they have read about it so I think pretty soon its going to be a standard screening question. Do you want kids, are you a porn addict? And at that point the argument that you do not have to tell is moot. If you don’t you are lying. So in a sense I think addicts need to prepare for this. I also think an addict who cannot be 100 percent open is likely still stuck in his addiction to some extent. He still has the addict mentality even if he has stopped using.
     

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