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Using Trans Pronouns

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. I think, and of course people may disagree with this - but I think that regardless of what you think of a person's trans identity etc, and whether you personally view them as a he or she, if you're interacting with them, you should be polite and use the pronouns they prefer. It's like if someone asks you to please remove your shoes before coming into your house - if you ignore that advice and just walk in with your shoes because you don't agree with their policy, that's just being rude. You don't have to believe in a particular pronoun being correct to use it.

    A personal example I think is similar. One of my ex girlfriends hated her full name, and preferred if people used her shortened name/nickname. I didn't hate her full name, I thought it was really nice and suited her - but, despite that, I respected her wishes and used her shorter name because it's what she prefers, and that's just being respectful and polite. That's general human decency.

    On top of that, people who are trans have faced bullying/lack of acceptance/etc their whole lives, so to them something as simple as a pronoun, which to you might seem meaningless and silly - is a big thing. Whether or not you agree with their decisions, they're people who want to be respected and treated with some decency - when someone can't even be polite enough to refer to them in the way they feel most comfortable with, it just shows people think very little of them, and further adds to the lack of acceptance they've dealt with their whole lives.

    It's okay if you make a mistake and assume the wrong pronoun for someone, anyone who gets offended over that is silly, but when corrected, make the effort to use the right one in future.

    While I'm personally supportive of anyone who wants to become trans, I can completely understand the reasons why someone might see it as a bad thing, even if I don't agree with them. That doesn't mean however that you have to be rude or mean to someone who's trans. I hear the argument so often "it's just a word, it's not a big deal". Exactly, it's just a word, it's not a big deal, suck it up, and be polite, it won't kill you. :)
     
  2. Well said :)
     
    JesusGreen likes this.
  3. Agreed!
     
    LEPAGE likes this.
  4. I like the Zee and Zyr approach, but that’s just me.
     
  5. Didn't read the whole thread, but I try to call people what they prefer. I think it's important to recognize that people won't get it right 100% of the time, but for the most part, people that have made the request to me are generally just appreciative about the effort.
     
    Cojo and tennessee like this.
  6. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    It's debated because people have fundamental, worldview differences in how they perceive truth. In fact, I'd suggest that 'how we understand truth' is the most foundational worldview issue we have, period.

    Some people (like myself) believe truth is an objective, tangible, real thing that can be known. Other people believe truth is subjective, and use phrases like "my truth" and "your truth."

    Pronoun preferences go afoul because they're essentially asking objectivists to agree that truth is relative. If a man wants me to refer to him as a woman, then I become an accomplice in what I believe is a hijacking of truth. For me, that's a big problem. For people who don't give a rip about truth, or who themselves believe truth is relative, it poses no problem to them whatsoever. They'll naturally have a hard time understanding why I can't just fall in line for the sake of 'common courtesy.'

    These aren't good parallels, because these are preferences. They are not truth claims. If a woman asks me to remove my shoes in her home, she's stating a preference regarding her property. If she asks me to refer to her as a man, she's stating a preference that I acknowledge the validity of her belief. That's very different.

    And yet, notice we say "transgender man" and "transgender woman". We need the qualifier "transgender" in front of "man" and "woman" because we're specifying that they're not actual men and women.

    Personally, I have no problem referring to someone by a preferred name, because a name isn't a truth claim about whether or not someone is male or female. But the pronouns "he" and "she" explicitly refer to the male/female dynamic, and that makes it a different issue.

    If gender were nothing but a matter of preference, I would agree with you.

    I'm white. Both of my parents are white, and all four of my grandparents were white. But let's say that I chose to identify with black culture. I read black authors, listened to urban music, majored in African American studies, and volunteered for causes that addressed black culture. Imagine, for some reason, that I felt like I identified with the oppression of black people ... so much so that I started insisting that everyone around me refer to me as a black man. Would that be completely ridiculous? Of course it would be. If someone said, "no, you're actually white," and I got angry about being 'mis-raced', I would never be taken seriously.
     
  7. Poseidon

    Poseidon Fapstronaut

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    Don’t be so melodramatic. :p
     
    JesusGreen likes this.
  8. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    I don't f*** around when it comes to truth. :)
     
  9. ConstraintsTheory

    ConstraintsTheory Fapstronaut

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    The way I see it is like this. I don't care if someone is trans it doesn't directly impact me so do whatever you want. But I will not play into their delusions. I don't have time for that and it has nothing to do with being disrespectful its about being truthful. A dude can't chop his cock off and take some estrogen and magically become a woman. And a woman can't take magic penis pill to become a man sorry it doesn't work that way.

    I'd rather be brutally honest and truthful and be hated for it than lie and play along in someone else delusions. I expect the same in return.
     
    Deleted Account and SuperFan like this.
  10. This actually happened, but it was a woman and her name is Rachel Dolezal. She has been socially tarred and feathered by society for pretending to be something she’s not. Kind of hyproctical of a “progressive” society that tells us we must respect the feelings of others identity. Apparently this respect is only extended to sexuality but not race. They will give Bruce Jenner a woman of the year award and at the same time completely ruin the livelihood of Rachel who was a branch president of the NAACP.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...chel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  11. Poseidon

    Poseidon Fapstronaut

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    I know this forum doesn’t censor the word “fuck” so I find it funny that your post contains asterisks. :p
     
    Son of a Bitch likes this.
  12. Ah I think it's a bit precious care what pronoun somebody wants you to call them. I'll call you what you want, that's not asking a lot. I don' have to believe that trans women and cis women are the same thing to be comfortable calling them both 'she'.

    I would feel similarly about bathroom usage.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  13. if the "girl" is a blaire white or jane marie. Yea I`ll use her pronouns. But if its a fat guy with a wig and 6 inch heels, no sir I`m not calling you a girl ;)
     
    Gotham Outlaw likes this.
  14. tweeby

    tweeby Banned

    What do you mean is a Blaire white?
     
  15. To @SuperFan And @ConstraintsTheory

    I think what you guys are saying goes back to what I said about what using pronouns MEANS to you. I totally agree that trans women are not women and trans men are not men. They are their own thing. But personally, I don't have an issue using the pronouns they like, because I don't see that as me saying "I believe you are a woman now." That's just not what it means to me. It might be what it means to them, but I don't think believing what you two believe and using their preferred pronouns have to be mutual exclusive things.

    I'm not, in any way, trying to force you guys to change your minds. I'm just providing some food for thought. I understand completely if, for you, using pronouns = agreement with their state as male or female. But I don't think it has to equal that.

    Also, for me there's a big difference between someone like Blaire White and... Well any other trans person I've encountered, really. And the difference is that she recognizes that she is not female and will never be female. I do as well. I don't call her "she" because I think she's female. I call her "she" because she looks like a woman and it would feel strange to call her "he." And also because I like her as a person and I don't feel the need to purposely make her uncomfortable if we were to be talking to each other.

    There's a big difference, though, between someone like that and someone like, sat, Riley Dennis, who recently tweeted that he's not a "male to female" trans person because he's "never been male." Which is delusional and insane. So yes, I agree that some trans people are delusional and reject obvious truth and we shouldn't agree with that and feed their delusions. But not all trans people are delusional in that way. Blaire explains it in a good way, I think. She says that she has made changes to her body and now presents as a woman in the world, because thats what makes her happy and more comfortable. I think there's a pretty clear difference between that perspective, which is the perspective I have about trans people, and the idea that they are actually the gender they want to be now, and THAT'S why we should use their preferred pronouns.
     
  16. I didn't want to address the "trans-race" thing, but since it's come up again, I will say that being "trans-race" is not a thing, and it doesn't need to be respected in the way that being trans gender does. Gender dysphoria is a thing, and there are actually studies that show that trans people can be born with biological things that highly contribute to their dysphoria. Such as a male born with basically what would be considered a female brain, or really strong hormonal imbalances that more closely resemble a female. I don't want to argue about whether or not that means trans people should transition,,or whatever, because I have a lot of thoughts on that, but it is an actual, physical, mental ailment. There's no evidence that someone has any physical, biological reason to identify as a different race, so in my opinon, that's just something people decide, socially, and it's dumb. You can be white and identify with black people a lot. That doesn't mean you should change your skin color and demand people pretend you are black.

    Now to be fair, I think a lot of people are doing this with transgenderism lately as well, and I disagree with that too. I don't think tomboys should be saying they're trans. I think being trans and having gender dysphoria should remain what it has always been: A medical diagnosis and a medial issue, not a social diagnosis and a political issue.

    But my main point is... being "trans race" and transgender are not the same for a great number of reasons, and there are valid reasons why one is accepted as legitimate and one is not. Some of these "trans" people I don't believe should be accepted as legitimate if they don't have any of the valid reasons I mentioned above to actually identify as trans. However, the issue with that thinking becomes, nobody can really know if they have those things or not, except their doctors.
     
  17. I believe he means, if the trans woman "passes" as female, he will use female pronouns.

    Blaire White is just a popular example of a trans woman who looks nearly identical to a cis woman.
     
  18. nalimsky

    nalimsky Fapstronaut

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    There is one like this in Serbia, he was very famous, but now i can't remember his name. I really can't call it woman. He is still masculine and look like man.

    Other side there are transgender people and i don't have any problem with, just google "major Helena", she was in Serbian army and she really look like woman and there is absolutely no problem to call Helena she.
     
  19. WalkingForward

    WalkingForward Fapstronaut

    If someone has a female name, looks and talks like a female, or even just attempts to look and talk like a female, it feels more natural for me to refer to that person with female pronouns. And vice versa for trans men.

    It also feels like the kind thing to do, and I want to be kind.

    But what pronouns we use should not be dictated by law. That doesn't come from genuine care for trans people, that's just a means for the postmodernists to demolish western civilization. I refuse to use the new, made up, "non-binary" pronouns.
     

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