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Discussion in 'Partner Support' started by Vixen, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    New discovery. I think I’ve figured out why PA husband has been crazy defensive gaslighting and back to his not-so-charming asshole self.

    IMDB Parental advisory. R movies with explicit sexual content. He’s perusing for risqué movies with his favorite actresses and using Not in Watchlist as a springboard. I discovered through perusing his accountability ap.

    So behold; my first real understanding of p-sub.

    Since his original deviance of choice was cybersex in chatrooms, reading sexual movie text is probably the best thing. And fairly covert.

    Earlier tonight he got upset and emotional from a dog dying in Babe Pig in the City. This is not a common occurance but dogs are his weak spot. Our dachshund died a year ago. So I show him affection and empathy and then while I give the girls a bath he creeps for sexual text including Rachael Weisz.

    I’m not sure how to approach this as I did not have a boundary for this before. Advice would be helpful.

    I’m pleased that my intuition was correct as something going on... and he has purchased ED pills without saying anything to me. Even tonight when we did FANOS. When we got to sobriety all he said was “No change.”

    This whole thing is an annoying use of time. I’ve detached enough I’m not even emotionally upset but curious if a break up may be impending.
     
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  2. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

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    In our home we don't watch movies/shows with nudity. If there is a sex scene with underwear shown my husband looks away. Also my husband doesn't use netflix or tv on his own. He instead uses more productive/creative uses of his time - Drawing, Reading, Talking to his group, playing with our son, etc.
     
  3. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    Our situations are almost identical! Im here whenever you need me @Vixen!
     
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  4. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Did you have issues with discovering p-subs with your ex PA? How did he respond? What did you do?
     
  5. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    I didn't discover any, but I also wasn't looking...
    When his "recovery" started taking a nose dive, I assumed it was because he was relapsing/doing something shady. So I asked a couple of times what was going on & I got gaslit like crazy; blamed, manipulated, etc.
    When I realized there wasn't a damn thing I could do to make this man be honest with me & stop the addict behavior, I stuck to my boundaries & here we are ;)

    The behaviors that stemmed from my husband's addiction, the lack of trying, my mothers situation, & trying to keep myself sane for my children became too much.

    I really felt like I was dying every day the behavior continued..I lost 50 lbs & started to wither away, my body ached every day, & I was becoming someone I didn't like...
    I can eat now, my body doesn't hurt, & my peaceful spirit is returning.

    I promise you, no amount of catching him is going to make him want to stop. He has to hit rock bottom & that looks different for everyone.
    I would suggest separation for a little while. He might reconsider his behavior when he gets a glimpse into what his future might look like ;)
     
  6. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    We talked. Lots of minimizing and justifying. He does admit to skirting the line. Still claims to have not done the PMO as agreed. When I point out how heavily he has been gaslighting and minimizing, he says:

    “Gaslighting?! You made that word up.” He exclaims. I think he followed with something along the lines of “This is all in your head.” But honestly I was distracted and laughing with the pinnacle of irony of his former comment. Brilliant yet pitiful in its dull fog.

    Brain fog from fantasy. I think that’s the culprit here. Several inconsistencies too. He tells me today he’s only doing this stuff to pacify me. After my trip for separation space, he told me in rage that he was doing this for himself and not for me otherwise he would have fallen off the bandwagon. Sooo this doesn’t really help me trust that he hasn’t fallen. He looked me in the eye and swore he hasn’t masturbated. He glanced to the right twice. I’m still not fully convinced.

    He accuses me of creating this narrative in my head. Tried to distract by stating all the benign ways he uses IMDB. As I let on that I could clearly tell what was going on he minimizes by saying it’s not nearly as bad or as arousing as when he used chatrooms for hours of sexual banter.

    And then blames me for treating all his sexuality as bad. Suggests that I join him in fantasy. Because it’s a relationship and he should have 50% say. After he said we don’t have a relationship because of no sex/rebooting. I counter by saying if that is the case— if the criteria for “relationship” is sex... (Which I feel underlines the fact he is hyper focused on sex).. then most of our marriage has not been a relationship. Because he was not sexually present. Because he was spending time in fantasy land instead.

    He says I want power and to control him. Says he wasn’t actually hiding things because I have an app on his phone. When I tell him I need him to be forthcoming, take iniative and be engaged in communicating about his recovery he says he shouldn’t have to because of the accountability app and that if I want more I should remove the app. He also blames me for not opening up because I’m not approachable. When I bring him my concerns in a pretty calm fashion he says I’m attacking him or setting a trap.

    So much crazy.

    I told him he’s not taking this seriously. He believes all his gaslighting because he’s not letting his brain heal. I told him this is wasting our time and I was considering separation. If we are going to separate we should do so while children are young. His initial response was that we can’t afford it.

    “You would have to work a full shift. You would have to put kids in daycare.” (He knows I do not want to do this so I consider this a prospective manipulation/threat. “You can go live with your mom and feed off of eachothers’ crazy.” Just offensive. And gaslighting. And he knows I can’t stand to spend too much time with her.

    Another discrepancy (potential manipulation/pity party) I’ve called him on: he acts so sad about our toddler protesting him leaving for work in the morning. He has seemed genuinely conflicted about this but when I present the notion of him cutting down his hours so he can stay home one day and let me work one day to balance it out... he is disagreeable. Would rather pay a babysitter (which may cost as much or more than what he would make in that day). When I inquired about if he’s even genuine about wanting to spend time with kids since he doesn’t want to work less— he says that work allows him to get away from the stress of kids and away from me. Not really winning me over on this one.

    Eventually he softened and seemed concerned with watery eyes. Told me he loved me, does not want to separate and will stop the p-sub.

    Whew this takes too long to record all the mess. I’m sure this isn’t even comprehensive.

    Course of action. I’m considering leaving this weekend. I could visit a friend a little ways away if I bring kiddos with me. Or might be nice to even leave kids with husband and go out on my own. A girlfriend of mine also suggested I get counseling for myself as she has recently done so and is living it.

    I’m just not sure if this is normal addict “progress” or if this qualifies as “insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.” On my part.

    At the very least this is another poor score during my phase of observation. I need to spend my time in more productive ways.

    I’m not sure if there is genuine light at the end of the tunnel or if this is just a glimmer, a fantasy that I myself am chasing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  7. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    I feel like I'm on the precipice of this. Pretty close to my threshold.

    Oh wow I'm so sorry you went through all of that. I think I've become somewhat accustomed to the emotional abuse over the years because it hasn't had as much of a dramatic impact on me. I'm not sure if the fact that I've built up an immunity makes me strong or is just more toxic/tragic. Or maybe both. The glimmer of hope that there could be a solution (granted a dwindling light at this point) coupled with actually knowing (more or less) what is the root of our troubles has been very liberating for my heart. When I was pregnant, like third trimester pregnant with twins, he told me on a couple occasions (which was almost out of the blue) that he hated me. That was so hard. I had to push it below and be strong for the babies and survive. I've been in that mode for a long time now. There is much less stress on that survival now that I'm not worried about premature labor stress complications and I will also feel justified to walk-- if/when that occurs. For so long I was terribly torn in anguish and quandary as to what the hell was wrong with our marriage. Now I know. Knowledge power. He deflects that I want power often... (I think he's the one more controlling than I am, typically). But I do want power to know what is going on with my marriage.

    I'm seriously considering it. Granted we didn't discuss "p-subs" in my original boundaries. I did say no fantasizing though. He minimizes the fantasizing going on with that... but he's clearly compulsively perusing multiple R rated movies including specific choice actresses. And he's doing this in the other room.

    Thanks for sharing your experience! It's valuable for me to see things a few steps ahead. My path has certainly been similar to yours. We will see what happens...
     
  8. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    I was so oblivious to what was going on, I had no clue I was being emotionally abused until dday. My dday was a complete surprise; I truly had an out of body experience that forever changed me. Suddenly, everything & nothing made sense in my marriage. It was a trip, for sure....
    This will be your best friend; your knowledge. It's going to be the thing that's on your side when your husband is acting a fool, spinning things & crumbling on the inside.
    Anytime!
    It's a tough climb up that mountain; keep going & you'll see the top soon ;)
     
  9. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Wow! The out of body experience sounds interesting. I definitely relate to the rest. I did feel pretty numb and surreal. Everything and nothing. This predicament is full of contradictions!
     
  10. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    I’m excitedly anticipating the calvary!
     
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  11. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    Thx my friend..
    I think she should take me up on my offer to go have a girls week in Vegas; anywhere really. All the SOs need to meetup in an environment full of palm trees, no men, & no children. One big emotion-fest ;)

    You are right; his behavior is not OK. It's not OK to do to any human, but the mother of his children? Nope.
    His kids will learn their father's behavior.
    I feel like addicts with kids don't fully acknowledge the impact it has on them. The way my husband ignored me, demeaned me, blamed me, etc was being watched by little eyes....
    Also, what if they walked in on him going to town with himself? What if they'd found things someday, just like I did?

    I just want to shake some men & scream what about the kids????
    Selfish.
     
  12. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    So, I just had a physical reaction reading this. My stomach did that butterfly thing & I forgot to breathe for a second.

    You amaze me with your strength & patience. Resilience.

    I have no clue how I would've handled my daughter finding it. I'd probably need bail $ :emoji_shrug:
     
  13. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Oh wow that is mortifying! I too felt taken back when I read that.
     
  14. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Uggh yeah the kiddos. That’s very important. I’m very wary of their proximity during arguments but my husband is less so. Even when we go to another room to talk today I can tell my daughter is picking up vibes.

    Vegaaassss! Yaaaaaassss!
     
  15. I totally get the p-sub thing.
    Its the reason I joined nofap in sept 2017.
    I couldn’t seem to stop myself from looking for sexual things in places where they shouldn’t be. Like youtube.
    I didn’t want to go to porn sites or look for obvious sexual stuff, but I felt like it was some exciting challenge to look for foreign movies or vintage erotic movies from the 60s or 70s.
    I didn’t masturbate to them, I couldn’t figure out why I was even looking. I guess it gave some exciting dopamine hit, just not knowing what I would find.
    I also could with honesty say I wasn’t looking at “porn”.
    But I felt bad anyway because I didn’t really believe my lie.
    My wife didn’t know anything about it, I was trying to quit on my own. Having given my source of personal knowledge, it seems that your husband is definitely trying to blame you for all of his problems and still trying to hang onto the addiction.
    I used to blame my wife for our problems.
    I was a jerk. It was because I couldn’t tell her that the real problem was my addiction to sex. I needed sex to desl with my emotions, be it masturbation and fantasy, seeing nudity, or just seeing a woman acting sexual in some way.
    Even reading about it.
    I wanted my wife to replace my PMO, so that I could give up PMO but not the dopamine hit that I got from it.
    The part where your husband was trying to get you to join in his fantasy sounded all too familiar.
    Takes one to know one I guess.

    Anyway, some of the sbusive things he said sounded like the might be narcissistic more than just addict.
    It worries me because I’ve had to deal with one in the past.
    They are super manipulative, and jump from tears and remorse to mean in no time, because they are just trying to see which one will manipulate better.

    Anyway, trust your gut. Be strong. It’s really all on him.
    People do what they want to.
    When he really wants to quit, he will.
    When he really decides that, you couldn’t keep him addicted if you wanted to.
     
  16. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    That same thing worries me too. I’ve been told not to diagnose him but not long after discovery, I determined he may be a covert narcissist. He’s definitely on the spectrum. So if I stay I have to deal with boundaries either way. So much energy wasted... so much belligerence....

    It was a struggle to even get him to accept the consequence of not sleeping in bed with me tonight. He initially flippantly refused. By the end of our conversation he softened a bit but still tried to negotiate that I must help him blow up the air mattress. Pretty much always tit-for-tat with him. I told him that was absurd to barter when he is the one who broke a boundary. I suspect I may need to take further action but I’m just not sure yet.

    What do you think would be a productive consequence for this behavior? I appreciate hearing from your perspective. Thanks for sharing!
     
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  17. I’m not very knowledgeable about boundaries. My wife leaves our room and sleeps on the couch when she’s angry it doesn’t feel safe or if I’m moving too much or if I’m snoring.
    When she started sleeping there for good, about a month after d-day, I thought it was a boundary. But she also says she just sleeps better by herself and it’s nothing personal. I like sleeping next to her but I think it’s just to the point where she is done doing things she doesn’t like just to make me happy.
    A few years ago, she quit kissing me. This was before she knew what was going on so I couldn’t figure out why she stopped. I said, “You used to like kissing.”
    She just said, “Things change.”

    I think these may be consequences of my actions more than boundaries, but I took notice that things were not going to continue like always.
     
  18. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    I did not keep a straight face! I was literally laughing and looking to the sky. Sidebar-- I was perusing articles about narcissism (after this incident) and I stumbled across one that tells you how to "get revenge" to a narcissist. Now this really is not my goal but it was a catchy article title so I explored. One of the tips was to flat out laugh at the narcissist. Ha, so I can check that off the list if I ever determine to be vengeful. (Don't think I will ever waste time on that though.)

    I discovered this article of yours a while back. At first I was mortified until I realized it was a parody. :p Very clever, sir.

    Thank you. I'm only recently realizing how much I second guess myself on these things. I have pretty high self esteem in general so I try to keep myself humble by truly considering criticism. Unfortunately most of my criticism has been coming from a man who blames me excessively for things.

    Yep.

    Oh I don't intend to. I even responded to him in the moment that were I to do that kind of thing it would be enabling. Which... okay to be honest this is a frustrating grey area to me. I've been mostly sex deprived through our marriage-- and most of the sex that was had was during the dark, barely conscious times in the middle of the night when I guess our primitive minds took over. So the notion of exploring sexuality more is appealing to me. Of course not in the confines of addiction. Not in the realm of just being an object for gratification that is going to aid in the continuation of his brain fog issues, and continue in his poor treatment of me.

    I keep going back to this. I don't know if he's really an addict or a narcissist with intimacy anorexia. I mean regardless of which it is, I definitely have to abide by boundaries. But I don't know if avoiding sexual content is directly going to have much bearing on the stubborn gaslighting/blaming situations. The more I read about narcissists I fear that could just be part of the narcissist playbook. If that's the case-- and it were to remain whether or not he has sexual thoughts (how much of this is a normal male thing?). Then I ponder if some shared sexuality could lend itself towards intimacy more so than appeasing his "addict". I mean yes he displays a lot of addict tendencies, but many of those are also narcissistic traits. How do I tell the difference? I do believe he has not gone into chatrooms for cyber sex which was the crux of how this all began. He never took the accountability software off of his computer. I do believe he is more fantasy focused than I am. I'm just wondering if I'm barking up the right tree.

    I don't plan to be sexual with him any between now and the end of this 90 days. And that's pretty soon. But then what? Experiment with just seeing how things go with sexual restrictions lifted? I mean I'm still not going to delve into crazy novelty to accommodate, not any time soon. Regardless of addict or not, my threshold for how much more toxic blame and hostility I want to take is limited. I just wish I knew there was a magical remedy to this.

    What evidence do you mean?

    Very. I used to pride myself on being the only one who could ride our stubborn quarter horse. And I always liked challenges. And I remember when I first met my husband he was very quiet and ... mysterious I guess you could say. He was so introverted it was a bit annoying but I also found it somewhat interesting and wanted to figure him out. And here I am now, in a scenario much more convoluted than I expected, over a decade later.

    What do you mean by recording? Documenting or literal audio recording? What kind scenario are you anticipating? This seems ominous but I'm all ears for safeguarding the future.

    True. A friend of mine thinks I'm wasting my time and that this will ruin me, emotionally and physically. I have read a book about intimacy betrayal and so I know the risks that go along with ongoing discoveries and infidelity. But it occurred to me that aside from the initial discovery (sex chatrooms), a lot of the way he treats me is not new. So I've been weathering it for years. No extreme illnesses have befallen me yet. And I carried twins to full term with natural birth so. Not to say I want to continue dealing with it. Since I now know he has been unfaithful I won't have any guilt if I do leave. When I talked with my friend for a while and she was pep talking me to leave him... I'm pretty calm about it for a bit but then thinking of a reality of him not being here did actually make me tear up a bit. So I'm not completely emotionless. And I do love him. If it comes down to needing to stop loving him, it will be a process. And then I'll be okay. But... at least at this juncture I don't feel that it's worth leaving over him perusing IMDB since it wasn't a boundary before.

    Thank you very much, Ghost.
     
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  19. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    That is a bit heartbreaking. That makes me sad for you. I mean I don't know your story or her wound and her reaction may be perfectly valid, but it's unfortunate nonetheless. What is your story?

    I've pretty much embraced the mentality that I'm going to make the best of things. One way or another. If I stay, I stick to my boundaries and I try not to be too affected by the tempest of his tyrant tantrum tirades. (That's the best way I've determined to describe what happens when his lizard brain takes over. When he goes full blown crazy defensive of his fragile ego against any possible outside opposition.) I mostly need to steer clear of the storms and get him to be more affectionate and engaged and things are good. So I TRY not to let the fear and betrayal stick with me too much. Of course when I figure out new ways he's stuck in sexualizing things, it's triggering for me to put my wall up and disconnect and that process takes a day or so to get back to "normal". Probably not really normal but where I can enjoy my day and be productive and communicate with him as we usually do. I don't want to waste too much time being the withdrawn one now. He's already wasted so much of our marriage being the withdrawn one. It's weird how the tides turn.

    ... but then again there is talk of rock bottom and how perhaps he hasn't felt that yet. So is my approach ultimately the most efficient approach? Whooo knows. I just figure I better save the big guns for when it's very fitting. I want this process to be conducive to growth without pulling the plug prematurely. But I don't want to be a vegetable forever either. If he truly is a narcissist, I may be merely a vegetable to him. But one of the most awesome, highly functioning/achieving vegetables that are out there... Ah I digress.

    I want to be happy. If I'm married I will try to make the most of it until if/when I decide I no longer want to be married. I also may be the only carrot (ha! that's the vegetable!), or the only incentive, for him to gain true intimacy. I could imagine us breaking up, him slipping into old habits and either not venturing out enough to find someone new or finding a new person and knowing even better how to conceal his tricks. Hmm... I digress again.

    So if there is good to be gained from this process, despite the pitfalls here and there, it could be really good. Good for me, good for him, and the three little people we created together.

    Today while I was drawing I heard this song and the lyrics really struck a cord with me. I found the music video to share with my husband:



    To encapsulate the resonance: the family has a toddler and twin babies just like we do. So that was striking. After watching it I was full blown crying. Despite all this mess, I still haven't done much crying. Yay catharsis! A solitary release that isn't taboo on NoFap. :p
     
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  20. I’ve told my story in quite a few threads over the past year or so.
    I have had 3 journals.
    You can probably do a search for them and get a lot of my backstory if you want it.
    Early on it included a lot of whining :rolleyes:.
    Its a little better now.

    You seem to be very circumspect about your situation, which is worse than anything I’m dealing with.
    Good job being so strong.
    You are smart to depend on support outside of the relationship like your girlfriends.
    Just don’t let him convince you that his weaknesses are your fault. :)
     
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